A different take on Russia

[ish mailian]

I'm on that wavelength. I want to respect Obama, as much respect as I
can give to a living person of politics, and I suspect that history
will be unkind to him, and he certainly deserves condemnation for his
policies and his failures, his wars, and His wars, but his good deeds,
including his  magnanimous and generous gestures, to so many who would
otherwise rot in prison....well....he's either a good man or wants so
desperately to perceived as one.

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 12:39 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
> the question is where we go from here? an immoral Kissinger-style balancing
> realpolitik or a samantha power moral-based activist foreign policy have
> both failed.
> Russia for good or ill must be engaged on some level.
>
> I'm a bit taken back by the outpouring of grief at the death of Diana-like
> mourning for Obama lacks a true perspective of the Obama presidency--the
> never-ending and expansive wars in the middle east, africa and Afghanistan
> is most glaring example and his failure. we have to divorce the man who i
> respect with his policies many of which I questioned.
>
> rich
>
> On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Bruno Nogueira <bruno.laze at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> For many years, Russia ceased to exist in Western media. There's only
>> Putin, the bad guy. He's the center of Russian universe, everything that
>> happens there is his fault. All political decisions are due to his madness.
>> Maybe in Russian newspapers we see headlines such as "Obama drops 6 bombs
>> per hour"...
>>
>> I'm not pro-Russia, but what we are doing in the West is very dangerous
>> and may lead to cruelty. There are human beings in Russia with many
>> different viewpoints, and we mainly ignore them.
>>
>> Thanks for sharing. We need more of this.
>>
>> 2017-01-20 5:10 GMT-06:00 ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> > My point is, of course, that for many people across the West regime
>>> > change
>>> > suddenly stopped being an international crime and became good practice
>>> > once
>>> > Obama and, more importantly, Clinton entered office. Many people who
>>> > call
>>> > themselves liberals or progressives and rightfully condemn those
>>> > earlier
>>> > US/CIA sponsored coups, not to mention the Iraq War, torture and
>>> > Guantanamo,  wholeheartedly supported and still support the "transition of
>>> > power"
>>> > brokered (Obama's words) by the US in Ukraine.
>>>
>>> Maybe we are all realists now. It's uncomfortable to hope that Henry
>>> Kissinger may educate Trump and that the high moral road not taken,
>>> made muddied and impassable by the crimes of Kissinger in Vietnam and
>>> elsewhere, and by the crimes of every president since, though it
>>> remain closed indefinitely, will one day be travelled and make all the
>>> difference we hope for. Hope can be a dangerous deception. The road
>>> we've taken, the one we find ourselves on has no moral footing, but
>>> devils can strike deals as well an angels and realists can see through
>>> the mud to improved stability and security.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > (At first I thought that these people just didn't have enough
>>> > information,
>>> > but now I realize that I have been wrong. They view Russia as the
>>> > enemy,
>>> > facts be damned.)
>>>
>>>
>>> There's lots of truth in that I suspect. The misinformation has been
>>> blinding. And Putin is a thug, a bad actor, a killer, ruthless.  Obama
>>> is a good man as presidents go.  Still, US policy has been more the
>>> cause than any nostalgic ambitions of Putin.
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > The Maidan coup was not in any significant way different to Guatemala,
>>> > Iran,
>>> > Chile etc. It is a continuation of the same old imperialist power
>>> > politics
>>> > -- with the added frisson of doing it right at Russia's border.
>>>
>>> Disagree. To lump these together is bad history and analysis. as you
>>> not, though, the most significant difference is location.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Trump is right about one thing only: He wants de-escalation of tensions
>>> > with
>>> > Russia. And for this, and much less for his misogyny or his racism or
>>> > his
>>> > corporate agenda, he is attacked by the bipartisan War Establishment
>>> > and the
>>> > deep state.
>>> >
>>> > The liberal establishment or Clintonite wing of the Democratic Party is
>>> > now
>>> > openly on the side of warmongers John McCain, Lindsey Graham, and
>>> > Cheney
>>> > protégé Victoria Nuland (not to mention Ukrainian neo-Nazis yet again)
>>> > and
>>> > of proven liars like Brennan and Clapper  -- all of them members of the
>>> > bipartisan War Party executing the wishes of the MIC ("my funding,
>>> > funding,
>>> > ahhh more, more").
>>> >
>>> > If this isn't reason enough for a long, hard look in the mirror, I
>>> > don't
>>> > know what is.
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>
>>
>
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l