Grace again. Misc.

[Mark Kohut]

These theologians can twist definitional logic better than auto-fellators.
So, depends.

For Pelagius, Grace musta been understood as God's help to overcome sin,
per Mackin's adumbration.
Which Pelagius said was 'not needed'; our 'free will' alone could do it,
evidently a "too much Godless Humanity" to 'fly' then, a heresy.

Augustine, like many theologians, musta rescued 'free will' in Man, while
keeping God's Graceful help. (Jacking himself off, at least, if not fully
sucking it off, so to speak).

And, Calvinists thought pretty entirely differently, it seems. (Fucking
themselves was no fun nor exercise]

And, if Chance and Necessity are conceptual opposites in
"explanation"---then Free Will (Chance in action) and Grace (God's
necessity) can
be analogized as 'rivals' (conceptually) and as opposites, it seems to me.



On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 8:08 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> More accurately, Free Will is the rival of Grace, not its opposite.
>
> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 6:58 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In Calvinism and other religious traditions, grace gets earned--or
>> shown-- by human free will choices.
>>
>> if grace is not earned or shown-- by free will human choices, then grace
>> as Pynchon uses it, is unearned, totally unexpected (by Lew and in the
>> text) and is somehow a function of the cosmos. Chance or otherwise. No?
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 7:41 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If Free Will replaces Grace, then it is it's equal, not its opposite.
>>>
>>> David Morris
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:27 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now THAT'S an answer I did not expect---nor really know (although I
>>>> know some of that shit from that tradition).
>>>> Another theologian rendered into the dustbin of churchyards because of
>>>> Augustine's dominance.
>>>>
>>>> A heretic, P's tradition. One might say a theological preterite,
>>>> analogously speaking? As Bailey alludes, and Morris fills in:
>>>> a kind of theological shlemiel, maybe? Profane Pelagius.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to suggest that as Pynchon transformed the concept of Grace
>>>> within the religious tradition, for him
>>>> in the fiction, it became like "the free will" of the cosmos---which
>>>> might all be predetermined, of course, per your observation---
>>>> when Lew experienced it unexpectedly.....when Against the Day ends....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In the way back, Pelagius (St Agustine's antagonist) thought we didn't
>>>>> need Grace--that our free will was sufficient to overcome sin. So, the
>>>>> opposite of Grace is Free Will.  Which science now says doesn't exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From the wayback (but eternal?) religious uses, the opposite might be
>>>>>> damnation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What might it be in Pynchon's transformation of the meaning of the
>>>>>> word?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit if
>>>>>>> you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace, you have
>>>>>>> clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suggest "trump"
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎7/‎29/‎2017 20:06
>>>>>>>> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English language
>>>>>>>> lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very
>>>>>>>> recent essay.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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