Grace again. Misc.

[Ian Livingston]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> "I think he's got it".
>
> "I think I've got it."
>
> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 11:19 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Rivals often work together for great show!
>>
>> David Morris
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 9:36 AM Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Good point.  Augustine believed the two work together.  Calvin
>>> discounted free will entirely.  When it came to avoiding sin and damnation,
>>> that is.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 8:08 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> More accurately, Free Will is the rival of Grace, not its opposite.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 6:58 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In Calvinism and other religious traditions, grace gets earned--or
>>>>> shown-- by human free will choices.
>>>>>
>>>>> if grace is not earned or shown-- by free will human choices, then
>>>>> grace as Pynchon uses it, is unearned, totally unexpected (by Lew and in
>>>>> the text) and is somehow a function of the cosmos. Chance or otherwise. No?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 7:41 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If Free Will replaces Grace, then it is it's equal, not its opposite.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:27 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now THAT'S an answer I did not expect---nor really know (although I
>>>>>>> know some of that shit from that tradition).
>>>>>>> Another theologian rendered into the dustbin of churchyards because
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> Augustine's dominance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A heretic, P's tradition. One might say a theological preterite,
>>>>>>> analogously speaking? As Bailey alludes, and Morris fills in:
>>>>>>> a kind of theological shlemiel, maybe? Profane Pelagius.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm going to suggest that as Pynchon transformed the concept of
>>>>>>> Grace within the religious tradition, for him
>>>>>>> in the fiction, it became like "the free will" of the cosmos---which
>>>>>>> might all be predetermined, of course, per your observation---
>>>>>>> when Lew experienced it unexpectedly.....when Against the Day
>>>>>>> ends....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the way back, Pelagius (St Agustine's antagonist) thought we
>>>>>>>> didn't need Grace--that our free will was sufficient to overcome sin. So,
>>>>>>>> the opposite of Grace is Free Will.  Which science now says doesn't exist.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From the wayback (but eternal?) religious uses, the opposite might
>>>>>>>>> be damnation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What might it be in Pynchon's transformation of the meaning of the
>>>>>>>>> word?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel <
>>>>>>>>> jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit
>>>>>>>>>> if you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace, you
>>>>>>>>>> have clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I suggest "trump"
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎7/‎29/‎2017 20:06
>>>>>>>>>>> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English language
>>>>>>>>>>> lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very
>>>>>>>>>>> recent essay.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
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