RIP Chuck Berry

Tue Mar 21 20:43:14 CDT 2017

Such uncertaincies In your judgement of "Healthy" sex between age-different
parties should not be subject to draconian punishments in blanket
applications.  You say "I don't think it is ever healthy," but why should
you be thé arbiter?

I think we need thé Gray for thé balance of justice's scale.

David Morris

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 8:14 PM Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com> wrote:

> There are always young people looking to sleep with people much older than
> them, but I don’t think that’s ever very healthy.  Kids may want something
> they think they are mature enough to handle but aren’t.  Or they are
> putting themselves into risky situations they don’t understand.  I don’t
> think there is a healthy way for a grown person to have a relationship,
> sexual or otherwise, with a teenager. Plenty of people go through it
> unscathed, but again, more grays and dangerous precedents.  Until we have a
> sensible legal system that can responsibly take individual situations into
> account (so probably never), it’s one of the only things I don’t mind
> seeing harsh penalties for across the board.
>
>
>
> *From: *David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 8:02 PM
> *To: *Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
> *Cc: *Bruno <bruno.laze at gmail.com>, "DuBois, John E." <jdubois at cabq.gov>,
> Jemmy Bloocher <jbloocher at gmail.com>, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>,
> Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>, Pynchon Mailing List <
> pynchon-l at waste.org>, Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com>
>
>
> *Subject: *Re: RIP Chuck Berry
>
>
>
> Please forgive m'y typos. M'y iPad has switched to French spell check, and
> fights m'y everything English.
>
>
>
> David Morris
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:59 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just to add more grays, I think that Mikos asshole hard a valid point
> about young gay males having sex with older men.  Pubescent boys want sex
> with men.  They don't need  coercion. It isn't rape.  But confused boys
> might be abused if thé laws allowed such congress.
>
>
>
> Just laws in these instances are hard to achieve, especially with
> hysterical outrage fueled by religion.
>
>
>
> David Morris
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 5:45 PM Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Interesting wiki.  Funny how our ideas of right and wrong can be so fluid
> over time. Not to discredit it, but that age of consent stuff is another
> thing that pedophiles liked to cite in prison – “I did something that’s
> been okay for 1,000s of years and it’s only recently been seen as a
> terrible thing to be with a woman that young” etc.  Seeing as how most of
> them became Christians the moment they got locked up, they also point out
> biblical stuff about a girl becoming a woman once she’s had her first
> menstrual cycle.
>
> As far as the age-illegal prostitute thing goes, I still see it as seeking
> out a child to fuck.  Somebody looking for a prostitute can seek out
> somebody that isn’t that helpless and young.  I’ve had more exposure to
> these people than I wish, and something you learn is: people don’t tend to
> seek out a child to have sex with once and then walk away from it entirely,
> it’s usually something people do consistently.  So maybe making some
> assumptions based on my experience.
>
> I just feel like it’s a dangerous precedent to set.  If we say it’s ok (or
> at least give the guy a pass) in one instance, then it opens up the door to
> other people to do the same things and get away with it, be distanced from
> it because of their achievements, or be excused for it.  “You didn’t judge
> Jerry Lee Lewis harshly so you have no right to judge me.”
>
> I’m a large believer in moral grey areas, but I have a pretty black and
> white view of adults having sex with children, even if those children
> aren’t pure-of-heart.
>
>
>
> *From: *<owner-pynchon-l at waste.org> on behalf of David Morris <
> fqmorris at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 5:14 PM
> *To: *Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
> *Cc: *Bruno <bruno.laze at gmail.com>, "DuBois, John E." <jdubois at cabq.gov>,
> Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>, Mark Thibodeau <
> jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>, Jemmy Bloocher <jbloocher at gmail.com>, Pynchon
> Mailing List <pynchon-l at waste.org>, Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com>
>
>
> *Subject: *Re: RIP Chuck Berry
>
>
>
> I think guilt for a particular crime is always relative, and your posts
> take a position of absolutism, at least in regards to the legality of sex
> with a minor. Lawful sex has long history of being a moving target, and
> still is.
>
>
>
> Particulars are alway important in this regard.  Some here have pointed
> out that Berry was hiring an age-illegal prostitute.  That particular has
> value, for obvious reasons.  Chuck Berry isn't due a pass on this crime due
> to his artistry, but his celebrity doesn't make him more guilty either.
> And his guilt by no means lessens the value of his artistic achievements.
>
>
>
> Wiki on Age of Consent History is very interesting:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States
>
>
>
> While the general age of consent is now set between 16 and 18 in all U.S.
> states, the age of consent has widely varied across the country in the
> past. In 1880, the age of consent was set at 10 or 12 in most states, with
> the exception of Delaware where it was 7.[2] The ages of consent were
> raised across the U.S. during the late 19th century and the early 20th
> century.[3][4] By 1920 ages of consent generally rose to 16-18 and small
> adjustments to these laws occurred after 1920. As of 2015 the final state
> to raise its age of general consent was Hawaii, which changed it from 14 to
> 16 in 2001.
>
>
>
> David Morris
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 3:41 PM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don’t think that I *must* mourn anything.  He’s gone, and his art
> remains.
>
> Also, what does the fact that fictional characters committed the same
> crime *in a book*, have to do with whether or not Chuck Berry was a sex
> criminal?  I’ve actually found this pretty interesting.  I don’t want
> people to not enjoy his music, but I think it’s important to not ignore or
> dismiss the bad things he did.
>
> Something I noticed was that the first several people who reacted to what
> I said didn’t bother to say that he didn’t do it, they just said things
> along the line of “They only convicted him because he was a black man” and
> “The girl was a prostitute.”  I always find those reactions strange.
>
>
>
> *From: *Bruno <bruno.laze at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 4:05 PM
> *To: *"DuBois, John E." <jdubois at cabq.gov>
> *Cc: *David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>, Jochen Stremmel <
> jstremmel at gmail.com>, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>, Jemmy
> Bloocher <jbloocher at gmail.com>, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>,
> Pynchon Mailing List <pynchon-l at waste.org>, Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com
> >
> *Subject: *Re: RIP Chuck Berry
>
>
>
> Er... that sounded a bit fascist.
>
>
>
> 2017-03-21 12:11 GMT-05:00 DuBois, John E. <jdubois at cabq.gov>:
>
> I must say I find the whole discussion ironic to say the least.  First,
> you must always separate the art from the artist.  Second, have you people
> even read *Gravity’s Rainbow*?  Brigadier Ernest Pudding. Hello.  Miklos
> Thanatz. Hello.  Slothrop's pedophilic sex with Bianca. Hello.  You
> wouldn’t or shouldn’t be on this listserv if you don’t recognize the
> artistic value in what Pynchon is doing there.  Yet you are upset over
> allegations about indiscretions in the life of Chuck Berry?  I see a
> performance like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ROwVrF0Ceg and I am
> just in awe of the artistry.  If you choose not to mourn the man, so be it,
> but you must mourn the passing of the art.
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] *On
> Behalf Of *David Morris
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 21, 2017 10:22 AM
> *To:* Jochen Stremmel; Mark Thibodeau
> *Cc:* Jemmy Bloocher; Jesse Gooch; Pynchon Mailing List; Toby Levy
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: RIP Chuck Berry
>
>
>
> I also agree with Mark.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 9:14 AM Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I'm with Mark on this one.
>
>
>
> 2017-03-21 15:02 GMT+01:00 Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>:
>
> So, basically, by this standard, world history previous to 1935 was
> populated pretty much entirely by monsters, perverts, pedophiles, and
> genociders.
>
> Personally, I think it's more constructive to take a slightly elastic
> view, depending on the variables.
>
> MT
>
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:07 AM, Jemmy Bloocher <jbloocher at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I'm with Jesse on this one.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 2:35 AM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I don’t really see what her being a prostitute has to do with it.  She
> >> could be a cannibal who fights dogs when she isn’t busy burning
> churches,
> >> and she would still be a child.  If a man sleeps with a prostitute and
> it
> >> happens to be a child, or if he has sex with a child and it is used
> against
> >> him by an inherently racist system, he is still having sex with a child.
> >> It’s not unfair that he went to jail for it, it’s unfair that others
> should
> >> have and didn’t because they didn’t share his status or skin color.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com>
> >> Date: Monday, March 20, 2017 at 3:46 PM
> >> To: Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The 14 year old girl was a prostitute. After the first mistrial she was
> >> arrested in another city for prostitution. Who knows what really
> happened 50
> >> years ago, but the charge of bringing a minor across state lines to
> have sex
> >> was brought to show an uppity Chuck Berry where he stood in society,
> not to
> >> protect the morals of the girl.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Did he not have sex with that girl?  Seems like there are several other
> >> articles that said he did.  I read a few before posting anything about
> it to
> >> make sure I wasn’t misremembering something.  I don’t doubt for a second
> >> that the prosecution was aided by him being a black man, if it had it
> been
> >> Elvis, there would have been no jail time.  Jerry Lee Lewis caught a
> lot of
> >> flack, but never actually went to jail for his child-bride either.
> Doesn’t
> >> mean he wasn’t having sex with that girl though.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com>
> >> Date: Monday, March 20, 2017 at 8:44 AM
> >> To: Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The only reason he went to jail for violating the Mann act was that he
> was
> >> black:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://heavy.com/entertainment/2017/03/chuck-berry-why-did-go-to-prison-jail-sentence-in-1960s-violate-mann-act-prostitution-tax-evasion/
> >>
> >> And the bathroom videotaping was a stupid thing to do but hardly rises
> to
> >> the charge of pedophilia.
> >>
> >> He was a great creative artist in the 1950s. He was not a great human
> >> being. But not a reprehensible villain.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 1:58 AM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I was in prison with some child molesters that could paint beautiful
> >> paintings, but they were pedophiles, not artists. I don’t disagree that
> >> Chuck Berry was a great musician.  He was incredibly talented and
> >> influential, but I feel like taping women while they shit in his
> restaurant,
> >> and having sex with 14-year-old girls, negates most of what a person
> does.
> >> I’m weird like that.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/20/17, 1:47 AM, "owner-pynchon-l at waste.org on behalf of Thomas
> >> Eckhardt" <owner-pynchon-l at waste.org on behalf of
> >> thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>     Am 20.03.2017 um 03:33 schrieb Jesse Gooch:
> >>
> >>     > Yeah, and after doing all of that travelling he got wealthy enough
> >> to secretly videotape women going to the bathroom.  Kind of a scumbag.
> >>
> >>     Yes. Also a great artist.
> >>     -
> >>     Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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