RIP Chuck Berry

[Jesse Gooch]

There are always young people looking to sleep with people much older than them, but I don’t think that’s ever very healthy.  Kids may want something they think they are mature enough to handle but aren’t.  Or they are putting themselves into risky situations they don’t understand.  I don’t think there is a healthy way for a grown person to have a relationship, sexual or otherwise, with a teenager. Plenty of people go through it unscathed, but again, more grays and dangerous precedents.  Until we have a sensible legal system that can responsibly take individual situations into account (so probably never), it’s one of the only things I don’t mind seeing harsh penalties for across the board.

From: David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 8:02 PM
To: Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
Cc: Bruno <bruno.laze at gmail.com>, "DuBois, John E." <jdubois at cabq.gov>, Jemmy Bloocher <jbloocher at gmail.com>, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>, Pynchon Mailing List <pynchon-l at waste.org>, Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry

Please forgive m'y typos. M'y iPad has switched to French spell check, and fights m'y everything English.

David Morris

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:59 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com<mailto:fqmorris at gmail.com>> wrote:
Just to add more grays, I think that Mikos asshole hard a valid point about young gay males having sex with older men.  Pubescent boys want sex with men.  They don't need  coercion. It isn't rape.  But confused boys might be abused if thé laws allowed such congress.

Just laws in these instances are hard to achieve, especially with hysterical outrage fueled by religion.

David Morris

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 5:45 PM Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>> wrote:
Interesting wiki.  Funny how our ideas of right and wrong can be so fluid over time. Not to discredit it, but that age of consent stuff is another thing that pedophiles liked to cite in prison – “I did something that’s been okay for 1,000s of years and it’s only recently been seen as a terrible thing to be with a woman that young” etc.  Seeing as how most of them became Christians the moment they got locked up, they also point out biblical stuff about a girl becoming a woman once she’s had her first menstrual cycle.
As far as the age-illegal prostitute thing goes, I still see it as seeking out a child to fuck.  Somebody looking for a prostitute can seek out somebody that isn’t that helpless and young.  I’ve had more exposure to these people than I wish, and something you learn is: people don’t tend to seek out a child to have sex with once and then walk away from it entirely, it’s usually something people do consistently.  So maybe making some assumptions based on my experience.
I just feel like it’s a dangerous precedent to set.  If we say it’s ok (or at least give the guy a pass) in one instance, then it opens up the door to other people to do the same things and get away with it, be distanced from it because of their achievements, or be excused for it.  “You didn’t judge Jerry Lee Lewis harshly so you have no right to judge me.”
I’m a large believer in moral grey areas, but I have a pretty black and white view of adults having sex with children, even if those children aren’t pure-of-heart.

From: <owner-pynchon-l at waste.org<mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org>> on behalf of David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com<mailto:fqmorris at gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 5:14 PM
To: Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>>
Cc: Bruno <bruno.laze at gmail.com<mailto:bruno.laze at gmail.com>>, "DuBois, John E." <jdubois at cabq.gov<mailto:jdubois at cabq.gov>>, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com<mailto:jstremmel at gmail.com>>, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com<mailto:jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>>, Jemmy Bloocher <jbloocher at gmail.com<mailto:jbloocher at gmail.com>>, Pynchon Mailing List <pynchon-l at waste.org<mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>>, Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com<mailto:tobyglevy at gmail.com>>

Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry

I think guilt for a particular crime is always relative, and your posts take a position of absolutism, at least in regards to the legality of sex with a minor. Lawful sex has long history of being a moving target, and still is.

Particulars are alway important in this regard.  Some here have pointed out that Berry was hiring an age-illegal prostitute.  That particular has value, for obvious reasons.  Chuck Berry isn't due a pass on this crime due to his artistry, but his celebrity doesn't make him more guilty either.  And his guilt by no means lessens the value of his artistic achievements.

Wiki on Age of Consent History is very interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States

While the general age of consent is now set between 16 and 18 in all U.S. states, the age of consent has widely varied across the country in the past. In 1880, the age of consent was set at 10 or 12 in most states, with the exception of Delaware where it was 7.[2] The ages of consent were raised across the U.S. during the late 19th century and the early 20th century.[3][4] By 1920 ages of consent generally rose to 16-18 and small adjustments to these laws occurred after 1920. As of 2015 the final state to raise its age of general consent was Hawaii, which changed it from 14 to 16 in 2001.

David Morris

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 3:41 PM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>> wrote:
I don’t think that I must mourn anything.  He’s gone, and his art remains.
Also, what does the fact that fictional characters committed the same crime in a book, have to do with whether or not Chuck Berry was a sex criminal?  I’ve actually found this pretty interesting.  I don’t want people to not enjoy his music, but I think it’s important to not ignore or dismiss the bad things he did.
Something I noticed was that the first several people who reacted to what I said didn’t bother to say that he didn’t do it, they just said things along the line of “They only convicted him because he was a black man” and “The girl was a prostitute.”  I always find those reactions strange.

From: Bruno <bruno.laze at gmail.com<mailto:bruno.laze at gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 4:05 PM
To: "DuBois, John E." <jdubois at cabq.gov<mailto:jdubois at cabq.gov>>
Cc: David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com<mailto:fqmorris at gmail.com>>, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com<mailto:jstremmel at gmail.com>>, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com<mailto:jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>>, Jemmy Bloocher <jbloocher at gmail.com<mailto:jbloocher at gmail.com>>, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>>, Pynchon Mailing List <pynchon-l at waste.org<mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>>, Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com<mailto:tobyglevy at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry

Er... that sounded a bit fascist.

2017-03-21 12:11 GMT-05:00 DuBois, John E. <jdubois at cabq.gov<mailto:jdubois at cabq.gov>>:
I must say I find the whole discussion ironic to say the least.  First, you must always separate the art from the artist.  Second, have you people even read Gravity’s Rainbow?  Brigadier Ernest Pudding. Hello.  Miklos Thanatz. Hello.  Slothrop's pedophilic sex with Bianca. Hello.  You wouldn’t or shouldn’t be on this listserv if you don’t recognize the artistic value in what Pynchon is doing there.  Yet you are upset over allegations about indiscretions in the life of Chuck Berry?  I see a performance like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ROwVrF0Ceg and I am just in awe of the artistry.  If you choose not to mourn the man, so be it, but you must mourn the passing of the art.

From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org<mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org> [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org<mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org>] On Behalf Of David Morris
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 10:22 AM
To: Jochen Stremmel; Mark Thibodeau
Cc: Jemmy Bloocher; Jesse Gooch; Pynchon Mailing List; Toby Levy

Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry

I also agree with Mark.

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 9:14 AM Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com<mailto:jstremmel at gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm with Mark on this one.

2017-03-21 15:02 GMT+01:00 Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com<mailto:jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>>:
So, basically, by this standard, world history previous to 1935 was
populated pretty much entirely by monsters, perverts, pedophiles, and
genociders.

Personally, I think it's more constructive to take a slightly elastic
view, depending on the variables.

MT

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:07 AM, Jemmy Bloocher <jbloocher at gmail.com<mailto:jbloocher at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I'm with Jesse on this one.
>
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 2:35 AM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I don’t really see what her being a prostitute has to do with it.  She
>> could be a cannibal who fights dogs when she isn’t busy burning churches,
>> and she would still be a child.  If a man sleeps with a prostitute and it
>> happens to be a child, or if he has sex with a child and it is used against
>> him by an inherently racist system, he is still having sex with a child.
>> It’s not unfair that he went to jail for it, it’s unfair that others should
>> have and didn’t because they didn’t share his status or skin color.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com<mailto:tobyglevy at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Monday, March 20, 2017 at 3:46 PM
>> To: Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>>
>> Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry
>>
>>
>>
>> The 14 year old girl was a prostitute. After the first mistrial she was
>> arrested in another city for prostitution. Who knows what really happened 50
>> years ago, but the charge of bringing a minor across state lines to have sex
>> was brought to show an uppity Chuck Berry where he stood in society, not to
>> protect the morals of the girl.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Did he not have sex with that girl?  Seems like there are several other
>> articles that said he did.  I read a few before posting anything about it to
>> make sure I wasn’t misremembering something.  I don’t doubt for a second
>> that the prosecution was aided by him being a black man, if it had it been
>> Elvis, there would have been no jail time.  Jerry Lee Lewis caught a lot of
>> flack, but never actually went to jail for his child-bride either.  Doesn’t
>> mean he wasn’t having sex with that girl though.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com<mailto:tobyglevy at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Monday, March 20, 2017 at 8:44 AM
>> To: Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>>
>> Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry
>>
>>
>>
>> The only reason he went to jail for violating the Mann act was that he was
>> black:
>>
>>
>> http://heavy.com/entertainment/2017/03/chuck-berry-why-did-go-to-prison-jail-sentence-in-1960s-violate-mann-act-prostitution-tax-evasion/
>>
>> And the bathroom videotaping was a stupid thing to do but hardly rises to
>> the charge of pedophilia.
>>
>> He was a great creative artist in the 1950s. He was not a great human
>> being. But not a reprehensible villain.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 1:58 AM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I was in prison with some child molesters that could paint beautiful
>> paintings, but they were pedophiles, not artists. I don’t disagree that
>> Chuck Berry was a great musician.  He was incredibly talented and
>> influential, but I feel like taping women while they shit in his restaurant,
>> and having sex with 14-year-old girls, negates most of what a person does.
>> I’m weird like that.
>>
>>
>> On 3/20/17, 1:47 AM, "owner-pynchon-l at waste.org<mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org> on behalf of Thomas
>> Eckhardt" <owner-pynchon-l at waste.org<mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org> on behalf of
>> thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de<mailto:thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de>> wrote:
>>
>>     Am 20.03.2017 um 03:33 schrieb Jesse Gooch:
>>
>>     > Yeah, and after doing all of that travelling he got wealthy enough
>> to secretly videotape women going to the bathroom.  Kind of a scumbag.
>>
>>     Yes. Also a great artist.
>>     -
>>     Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l



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