Herero latest

Sat May 20 17:38:28 CDT 2017

Monte's point(s) seem unassailable. My boil down: tribalism is the root
problem.  But history of tribal conflict isn't easily smoothed over.  We
gods floating above in judgment of past horrible genocidal conflicts should
check ourselves.

David Morris

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 5:18 PM jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Couple, three points:
>
> I am not in competition with you to cite evidence of "the overwhelming
> edge in power and organized aggression of the European expansion over
> nearly all the indigenous people it encountered in Africa, Asia, and
> the New World." I don't claim to be an historian.
>
> Secondly, I am not convinced that all human cultures are equivalently
> predisposed to "eat the apple," etc. I think the uniqueness of the
> European (Western) example is unique and it is precisely that
> uniqueness that Pynchon is concerned with. Scale matters, and so does
> the belief system that undergirds and justifies the implementation of
> systematic genocide.
>
> Lastly, it seems obvious to point out, that all human societies are
> capable, push to shove, of atrocity, but that gives short shrift to
> the uniqueness of the Western version. There are hints in the texts of
> another type of uniqueness- perhaps the flip side of the same coin,
> that there is something special- especially good- about "us," that we
> have something unique to offer the rest of the planet that may yet
> turn out to be decisive. In order for that to happen, "we" need to be
> especially honest.
>
> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > "False equivalence"? I don't question for one second -- and venture that
> I
> > could cite a lot more evidence than you could for -- the overwhelming
> edge
> > in power and organized aggression of the European expansion over nearly
> all
> > the indigenous people it encountered in Africa, Asia, and the New World.
> >
> > But I don't agree that it "rubs salt in the wounds of the victims" to
> > acknowledge that there *were* many indigenous, warlike, expansionist,
> > slave-taking empires -- Chinese, Indian, Mongol, Central and West
> African,
> > Mexica (Aztec), Inca, Five Nations -- before the Europeans arrived. Or
> that
> > their interactions with Europeans got complicated:
> >
> > - the Huron and Mohicans playing English and French for guns in their own
> > immemorial war, while the English and French were playing them
> > - Indian rajahs and sultans doing the same against each other with -- and
> > typically marching with -- troops of the British East India Company,
> French,
> > and Portuguese
> > - Cortes taking Tenochtitlan with 750 Spaniards -- and 80,000 or more
> > Tlaxcalan and other allies he'd recruited, who cheerfully slaughtered
> their
> > erstwhile Mexica overlords
> >
> > You call these "unique"; I call them ubiquitous. It's the Herero "war,"
> the
> > Armenian genocide, the Holocaust, that are more nearly unique precisely
> > because they were so one-sided; the victims had *no* state, allies or
> > organized military power of their own. That doesn't mean everything that
> > happened from 1450 to 1950 was the same story writ large.
> >
> > Nor does it mean that other, less helplessly "pure" victims, deserved or
> > asked for what imperialism/colonialism did to them. It doesn't exculpate
> > Europeans from any of their bloody 500-year spree. It just means that
> *all*
> > humans are liable to eat the apple (drink the Kool-aid?) of power and
> > domination when they can.
> >
> > Pynchon spends a lot of time exploring the specifically European and USAn
> > expressions of that, and it leaves a mark -- as it should. But he also
> dips
> > via Calvinism to Adam's fall and other mythologies, visits ancient ruins
> and
> > legends, zooms out to millennia rather than centuries -- and those are
> > reminders (I think deliberate) that it's not *all* about us.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 9:55 AM, jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>  I think it is pretty clear, and that bringing up the divisions,
> >> infighting and betrayal among the Herero amounts to a false
> >> equivalence.
> >>
> >> I'm not insinuating that you endorse or excuse the genocide in any
> >> way, but each of those examples you listed are unique. Lumping them
> >> together rubs salt in the wounds of the victims.
> >>
> >> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:29 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Gotcha. All clear now.
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 8:42 PM, jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> This is an example of white European Christians travelling thousands
> >> >> of miles to the homeland of native Africans, colonizing it, and then
> >> >> rounding up the natives and systematically exterminating them. The
> >> >> only complexity about this is the twisted, convoluted arguments about
> >> >> why they did it, and why they should not be held accountable.
> >> >>
> >> >> "Oh, but it's more complicated than that..."  I'm reminded of
> >> >> Archduke Ferdinand playing the dozens. Oh, and his trophy's- if he
> >> >> even bothered to have the carcasses stuffed- littering the plains.
> Or,
> >> >> those brave "souls" riding along
> >> >> on the first transcontinental railroad shooting the buffalo until
> >> >> their fingers got tired.
> >> >>
> >> >> Let's get real here, and not obfuscate like the ink of a white
> octopus.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 9:55 AM, e tb <eburns at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > Salt in old wounds: What Germany owes Namibia | The Economist
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21721918-saying-sorry-atrocities-century-ago-has-so-far-made-matters-worse-what
> >> >> -
> >> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
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