Herero latest

[Monte Davis]

> I think the uniqueness of the European (Western) example is unique

Can't argue with that

> Scale matters, and so does the belief system that undergirds and
justifies the implementation of
systematic genocide.

I
​t was doubtless a great comfort to 2 million Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs in
1947, 30 million Chinese in 1959-61, 1 million Indonesian Chinese in
1965-66, 2 million Cambodians in 1975-1979, 800,000 Rwandan Tutsi in 1994,
and 5 million Congolese in 2003-2008 that their deaths were small-scale,
unsystematic, non-genocidal, and not in the service of the Western belief
system.

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 6:17 PM, jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Couple, three points:
>
> I am not in competition with you to cite evidence of "the overwhelming
> edge in power and organized aggression of the European expansion over
> nearly all the indigenous people it encountered in Africa, Asia, and
> the New World." I don't claim to be an historian.
>
> Secondly, I am not convinced that all human cultures are equivalently
> predisposed to "eat the apple," etc. I think the uniqueness of the
> European (Western) example is unique and it is precisely that
> uniqueness that Pynchon is concerned with. Scale matters, and so does
> the belief system that undergirds and justifies the implementation of
> systematic genocide.
>
> Lastly, it seems obvious to point out, that all human societies are
> capable, push to shove, of atrocity, but that gives short shrift to
> the uniqueness of the Western version. There are hints in the texts of
> another type of uniqueness- perhaps the flip side of the same coin,
> that there is something special- especially good- about "us," that we
> have something unique to offer the rest of the planet that may yet
> turn out to be decisive. In order for that to happen, "we" need to be
> especially honest.
>
> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > "False equivalence"? I don't question for one second -- and venture that
> I
> > could cite a lot more evidence than you could for -- the overwhelming
> edge
> > in power and organized aggression of the European expansion over nearly
> all
> > the indigenous people it encountered in Africa, Asia, and the New World.
> >
> > But I don't agree that it "rubs salt in the wounds of the victims" to
> > acknowledge that there *were* many indigenous, warlike, expansionist,
> > slave-taking empires -- Chinese, Indian, Mongol, Central and West
> African,
> > Mexica (Aztec), Inca, Five Nations -- before the Europeans arrived. Or
> that
> > their interactions with Europeans got complicated:
> >
> > - the Huron and Mohicans playing English and French for guns in their own
> > immemorial war, while the English and French were playing them
> > - Indian rajahs and sultans doing the same against each other with -- and
> > typically marching with -- troops of the British East India Company,
> French,
> > and Portuguese
> > - Cortes taking Tenochtitlan with 750 Spaniards -- and 80,000 or more
> > Tlaxcalan and other allies he'd recruited, who cheerfully slaughtered
> their
> > erstwhile Mexica overlords
> >
> > You call these "unique"; I call them ubiquitous. It's the Herero "war,"
> the
> > Armenian genocide, the Holocaust, that are more nearly unique precisely
> > because they were so one-sided; the victims had *no* state, allies or
> > organized military power of their own. That doesn't mean everything that
> > happened from 1450 to 1950 was the same story writ large.
> >
> > Nor does it mean that other, less helplessly "pure" victims, deserved or
> > asked for what imperialism/colonialism did to them. It doesn't exculpate
> > Europeans from any of their bloody 500-year spree. It just means that
> *all*
> > humans are liable to eat the apple (drink the Kool-aid?) of power and
> > domination when they can.
> >
> > Pynchon spends a lot of time exploring the specifically European and USAn
> > expressions of that, and it leaves a mark -- as it should. But he also
> dips
> > via Calvinism to Adam's fall and other mythologies, visits ancient ruins
> and
> > legends, zooms out to millennia rather than centuries -- and those are
> > reminders (I think deliberate) that it's not *all* about us.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 9:55 AM, jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>  I think it is pretty clear, and that bringing up the divisions,
> >> infighting and betrayal among the Herero amounts to a false
> >> equivalence.
> >>
> >> I'm not insinuating that you endorse or excuse the genocide in any
> >> way, but each of those examples you listed are unique. Lumping them
> >> together rubs salt in the wounds of the victims.
> >>
> >> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:29 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Gotcha. All clear now.
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 8:42 PM, jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> This is an example of white European Christians travelling thousands
> >> >> of miles to the homeland of native Africans, colonizing it, and then
> >> >> rounding up the natives and systematically exterminating them. The
> >> >> only complexity about this is the twisted, convoluted arguments about
> >> >> why they did it, and why they should not be held accountable.
> >> >>
> >> >> "Oh, but it's more complicated than that..."  I'm reminded of
> >> >> Archduke Ferdinand playing the dozens. Oh, and his trophy's- if he
> >> >> even bothered to have the carcasses stuffed- littering the plains.
> Or,
> >> >> those brave "souls" riding along
> >> >> on the first transcontinental railroad shooting the buffalo until
> >> >> their fingers got tired.
> >> >>
> >> >> Let's get real here, and not obfuscate like the ink of a white
> octopus.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 9:55 AM, e tb <eburns at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > Salt in old wounds: What Germany owes Namibia | The Economist
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/
> 21721918-saying-sorry-atrocities-century-ago-has-so-
> far-made-matters-worse-what
> >> >> -
> >> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
>
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