Herero latest

[Mark Thibodeau]

KaPOW!

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 9:40 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think the uniqueness of the European (Western) example is unique
>
> Can't argue with that
>
>> Scale matters, and so does the belief system that undergirds and justifies
>> the implementation of
> systematic genocide.
>
> I
> t was doubtless a great comfort to 2 million Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs in
> 1947, 30 million Chinese in 1959-61, 1 million Indonesian Chinese in
> 1965-66, 2 million Cambodians in 1975-1979, 800,000 Rwandan Tutsi in 1994,
> and 5 million Congolese in 2003-2008 that their deaths were small-scale,
> unsystematic, non-genocidal, and not in the service of the Western belief
> system.
>
> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 6:17 PM, jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Couple, three points:
>>
>> I am not in competition with you to cite evidence of "the overwhelming
>> edge in power and organized aggression of the European expansion over
>> nearly all the indigenous people it encountered in Africa, Asia, and
>> the New World." I don't claim to be an historian.
>>
>> Secondly, I am not convinced that all human cultures are equivalently
>> predisposed to "eat the apple," etc. I think the uniqueness of the
>> European (Western) example is unique and it is precisely that
>> uniqueness that Pynchon is concerned with. Scale matters, and so does
>> the belief system that undergirds and justifies the implementation of
>> systematic genocide.
>>
>> Lastly, it seems obvious to point out, that all human societies are
>> capable, push to shove, of atrocity, but that gives short shrift to
>> the uniqueness of the Western version. There are hints in the texts of
>> another type of uniqueness- perhaps the flip side of the same coin,
>> that there is something special- especially good- about "us," that we
>> have something unique to offer the rest of the planet that may yet
>> turn out to be decisive. In order for that to happen, "we" need to be
>> especially honest.
>>
>> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > "False equivalence"? I don't question for one second -- and venture that
>> > I
>> > could cite a lot more evidence than you could for -- the overwhelming
>> > edge
>> > in power and organized aggression of the European expansion over nearly
>> > all
>> > the indigenous people it encountered in Africa, Asia, and the New World.
>> >
>> > But I don't agree that it "rubs salt in the wounds of the victims" to
>> > acknowledge that there *were* many indigenous, warlike, expansionist,
>> > slave-taking empires -- Chinese, Indian, Mongol, Central and West
>> > African,
>> > Mexica (Aztec), Inca, Five Nations -- before the Europeans arrived. Or
>> > that
>> > their interactions with Europeans got complicated:
>> >
>> > - the Huron and Mohicans playing English and French for guns in their
>> > own
>> > immemorial war, while the English and French were playing them
>> > - Indian rajahs and sultans doing the same against each other with --
>> > and
>> > typically marching with -- troops of the British East India Company,
>> > French,
>> > and Portuguese
>> > - Cortes taking Tenochtitlan with 750 Spaniards -- and 80,000 or more
>> > Tlaxcalan and other allies he'd recruited, who cheerfully slaughtered
>> > their
>> > erstwhile Mexica overlords
>> >
>> > You call these "unique"; I call them ubiquitous. It's the Herero "war,"
>> > the
>> > Armenian genocide, the Holocaust, that are more nearly unique precisely
>> > because they were so one-sided; the victims had *no* state, allies or
>> > organized military power of their own. That doesn't mean everything that
>> > happened from 1450 to 1950 was the same story writ large.
>> >
>> > Nor does it mean that other, less helplessly "pure" victims, deserved or
>> > asked for what imperialism/colonialism did to them. It doesn't exculpate
>> > Europeans from any of their bloody 500-year spree. It just means that
>> > *all*
>> > humans are liable to eat the apple (drink the Kool-aid?) of power and
>> > domination when they can.
>> >
>> > Pynchon spends a lot of time exploring the specifically European and
>> > USAn
>> > expressions of that, and it leaves a mark -- as it should. But he also
>> > dips
>> > via Calvinism to Adam's fall and other mythologies, visits ancient ruins
>> > and
>> > legends, zooms out to millennia rather than centuries -- and those are
>> > reminders (I think deliberate) that it's not *all* about us.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 9:55 AM, jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  I think it is pretty clear, and that bringing up the divisions,
>> >> infighting and betrayal among the Herero amounts to a false
>> >> equivalence.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not insinuating that you endorse or excuse the genocide in any
>> >> way, but each of those examples you listed are unique. Lumping them
>> >> together rubs salt in the wounds of the victims.
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:29 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Gotcha. All clear now.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 8:42 PM, jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This is an example of white European Christians travelling thousands
>> >> >> of miles to the homeland of native Africans, colonizing it, and then
>> >> >> rounding up the natives and systematically exterminating them. The
>> >> >> only complexity about this is the twisted, convoluted arguments
>> >> >> about
>> >> >> why they did it, and why they should not be held accountable.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Oh, but it's more complicated than that..."  I'm reminded of
>> >> >> Archduke Ferdinand playing the dozens. Oh, and his trophy's- if he
>> >> >> even bothered to have the carcasses stuffed- littering the plains.
>> >> >> Or,
>> >> >> those brave "souls" riding along
>> >> >> on the first transcontinental railroad shooting the buffalo until
>> >> >> their fingers got tired.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Let's get real here, and not obfuscate like the ink of a white
>> >> >> octopus.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 9:55 AM, e tb <eburns at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > Salt in old wounds: What Germany owes Namibia | The Economist
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21721918-saying-sorry-atrocities-century-ago-has-so-far-made-matters-worse-what
>> >> >> -
>> >> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
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Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l