P-list Desperate Desires

[Mark Kohut]

Some literary scholar/historian once wrote a piece I haven't been able to
forget. In broad terms, historically and nation-based, he pointed out
how often, almost universally, the best literature emerged from the
beginnings of what we might call historical/national and literary
self-consciousness.
 Greece, say. The Americas, plural.

And emerged early in genres, Don Quixote (and a few early others) are among
the best novels ever written.
Shakespeare in English drama (and modern self-consciousness) and pure
writing. Goethe? (Whom I hardly know).
And so on, use your own knowledge.

He offered this possible explanation: Literature, fully open by definition
to everything in the writer's world and the best of which incorporates the
fullest controlled vision
of that world, is enlarged--rich-- with that kind of innocent--no
masterpieces which ALREADY contain so much, to oppress with weighty
achievement-- engulfing of the world with a new form. By a few only,
always, of course.



Yes, some of this might be understood as a hindsight look at only the
surviving best, with all of the weaker
disappearing into the dustbin of history, a "mythic" creation of a golden
creative age but

................I can't shake the notion as stated...

and maybe that applies to the first readings of GR (and other novels on the
Plist) even more? A more innocent embracing and engulfing of a book's
genius; first thoughts, best thoughts and inevitably repeated, often
weakly, by later readers therefore weakening the later Group Reads. Many
drop off because they are bored?

So, I urge the new innocents to 'just talk' about the book as Mike B. has
requested, forget previous readings (unless you do go to the archives,
which I also recommend) since time is stingy and the old Pynchonhand former
innocents to repeat the established insights and push and connect beyond
those other reads. And engage the new readers newly.

And all to keep on keeping on.

Semi-oldtimer's tip: post in drafts for later as you start reading. You
will find it interesting to interact with your own words and perceptions
BEFORE you send them to the List, I suggest. I learned to wait and, I
think, improve on, many posts, even as I also fingertip "think", as time
exists wordlessly otherwise.

For example, I now have five or six posts ready for when the M & D Group
Read gets to where it recently once was and I will have tens upon tens as I
am rereading again...
One non-spoiler: the chapter on bread has made me want to bake a loaf. (See
how Pynchon changes my very life! ) So, today, I am...

Waiting for Godot (I once saw an off-Broadway play in which he came. A
businessman, confused but sure of himself),

Mark





On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 9:48 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> The first two "GRGRs" were really deep.  I think Andrew Dinn left during
> the 2nd GRGR, and he was a real scholar.  Despite the flame wars, the
> content was often great.  Call that past a myth, but it wasn't.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 8:28 PM da kid <peterock86 at live.com> wrote:
>
>> I've searched through the archives a bit and enjoy finding out other
>> interpretations of parts of Against the Day and Mason and Dixon. And yeah,
>> most everybody had something smart to say. The reading group for Mason and
>> Dixon back when it first came out is really great. The user Andrew Dinn
>> really had some outstanding insights into the book.  As far as "flame wars"
>> go, that's the last thing I'd want to waste my time with and u don't feel
>> like I missed out in anything there.
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-pynchon-l at waste.org <owner-pynchon-l at waste.org> on behalf
>> of Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 25, 2017 8:06:43 AM
>> *To:* David Morris
>> *Cc:* P-list
>> *Subject:* Re: P-list Desperate Desires
>>
>> Yeah, nothing like the 'good old days', that golden age (myth) in every
>> culture and group.
>>
>> I wasn't there then but what seemed to last best was everyone's (who is
>> still here) love of the flaming wars.
>>
>> There have been good group readings since, full of ideas; full of many
>> who knew the archives whether
>> they had participated or 'studied' them. And read books about Pynchon;
>> and read history and research
>> since 'the golden age'. And tried to add to and go beyond. I think the
>> later group reads I know stopped
>> because no one fucking cared enough; maybe it takes hot burning egos to
>> keep it going,
>> another Pynchon insight probably.
>>
>> 'F*c* the golden age, he says flamingly.
>> In fact, I think Pynchon's vision might be that the golden age is always
>> the present,
>> ungolden as it always is.
>>
>> Read and talk about Pynchon's M & D NOW, with whatever one can bring.
>>
>> Or keep talking about when.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 11:31 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> No P-list group read has ever finished without breakdown.  But the early
>>> days of this list were much more engaged on many more intellectual levels
>>> than now.  Egos flew high then, and burned hot. As it devolved, factions
>>> formed, and then dissolved again.  Often via death, or psychic breaks. But
>>> ideas ran high then.  Go study the archives. And have fun!
>>>
>>
>>
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