Need to hear what some smart people have to say about this.

Mon Oct 30 22:56:53 CDT 2017

 i just don’t see how it can be justified to call this a Jewish homeland when it was abandoned  by  most Jews for close to 2000 years.  Also the socialist version has pretty decisively lost the political battle and current calls  by Israelis for just treatment of Palestinians are being actively crushed into a marginal protest vote.  

  The Zionist project has played out as extremely dishonest, violent, and racist and has created one of the worst examples of apartheid  around.  I once believed the mythology of the Movie Exodus, My father had me read Chaim Potok, and other Jewish writers, several of my closest friends were Jewish from my youth.  and depite the bullshit idea that it means nothing, I have many Jewish friends today. I have even had close frienships with hardcore Zionists. But my  youthful ideas about Zionism and Israel  gave way when I grew up and did some serious reading and, to be honest,  I now regard Zionism  as a racist disease profoundly contrary to the remarkable, astounding and humane contributions of Jews and Judaism.  
    This moral evaluation is not unique to Zionism. I regard European and US colonialism with the same loathing while loving and respecting the rich contributions these people and cultures produced.  

> On Oct 29, 2017, at 1:33 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> In case this was partially aimed at me, you bet your sweet bippy I see the rising tide of dangerously fascistic anti-Semitism on the Far Right (and acknowledge that there is, indeed, some of that on the conspiracy-minded Left, which is my home base, so it is a source of some shame). I am not even anti-Zionist. I admire Herzl and the leftish/democratic socialist version of Zionism, and feel that Israel is now, and should be, the homeland of the Jews. But the questions, I suppose, lie in, how best do we get there, as a planetary community? Because as incredibly talented a minority as they are, the Jews simply won't be able to do it entirely on their own.
> 
> With love,
> Jerky / Mark T.
> 
> 	Virus-free. www.avg.com
> 
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 6:57 PM, Laura Kelber <laurakelber at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a painful topic for me. I loathe the right-wing militaristic Zionistic wing of Jewish identity. I come from the communist and/or politically progressive, secular strain that helped shape the intellectual life of NYC when I was growing up in the 60s. Now it's the rightwing Orthodox and Hasidic Jews that dominate the Jewish community. Where the hell did all the secular, progressive Jews go?!
> 
> But much as I loathe both the American and Israeli strains of Zionism, I'm hypersensitive to the antisemitism that simmers below the surface of a lot of so-called progressive groups and individuals. A failure to recognize and protest the antisemitism of the alt-right and white supremacists, for example. A willingness to buy into the "rich Jewish banker" and "Jewish-controlled media" stereotypes. Hell, I buy into some of those stereotypes myself, sometimes. But I'm allowed to, because I'm Jewish. Non-Jews, proceed with caution! I don't need a disclaimer about how your best friend is Jewish, but I do need to hear an acknowledgement that antisemitism exists and that Jews of any ideology have a right to be paranoid about it.
> 
> Even though antisemitic signs were prominently displayed in Charlotte, VA, none of the knee jerk lefty emails I got mentioned antisemitism. It just isn't sexy to decry antisemitism. Look, I can understand that. Black people are beaten, murdered and incarcerated all over this country every fucking day. That's not happening to Jews. 
> 
> But there is and always has been an antisemitic strain in this country, and, perhaps stoked by the internet, it's become particularly virulent lately. It was ever-present in the construction industry when I worked there in the 80s and 90s. Job sites were frequently racially and ethnically segregated, and I was often placed in the "Jew crew." Not uncommon for us to bear the brunt of being "tightwad Jews" or, in my case, a "Jewess cunt." "Hey, you know who the world's biggest cunt is? Hitler, 'cause he couldn't even finish the job!" And so on.
> 
> Just recently made the mistake of reading the comments on a mainstream news story about Weinstein. The comments started in on the "typical Jewish" behavior of that trio - Weinstein, Polanski and Woody Allen, then on to how they were a disgrace to the white race, and finally, to an argument about whether Jews could even be considered white.
> 
> So, yeah, it's obnoxious when anyone who's legitimately outraged by Israel's racist/militaristic actions gets branded an antisemite. But it would be nice if those same anti-zionists expressed a little dismay over the seething hatred of Jews that so many non-Jews seem to foster. Because it's pretty disturbing.
> 
> Laura
> 
> 
> On Oct 28, 2017 4:41 PM, "da kid" <peterock86 at live.com> wrote:
> From: da kid <peterock86 at live.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 8:05:33 AM
> To: Mark Thibodeau
> Subject: Re: Need to hear what some smart people have to say about this.
>  
> Im not that smart but I think it is really really really sad that people feel they have to write a paragraph that attempts to prove they don't hate Jews before they can criticize Israel. I am also what you call a philo-semite but Israel's treatment of Palestine is abhorrent. The recent hubbub about Hebron, which is in Palestine, not being called Israeli is another recent example of false "anti-Semitism" accusations being thrown about. There is definitely a rich and powerful right wing pro Israeli lobby in America. That's not antiSemitic to say is it? 
> From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org <owner-pynchon-l at waste.org> on behalf of Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 3:52:59 AM
> To: pynchon -l
> Subject: Need to hear what some smart people have to say about this.
>  
> First things first... and I hate that I have to state this up front (but considering the subject matter, I feel that I must)... I am not an anti-Semite. In fact, if anything, I'm a Judeophile, or philo-Semite. Many of my heroes are Jews. I think Jewish women are among the world's must beautiful. I have many Jewish friends, some of whom are among my closest and most beloved. In short, I am no Jew-hater.
> 
> But I'm also a huge fan or the musician Roger Waters. A lifelong admirer of both his music and his obvious sincere, passionately held beliefs. Lately, I've noticed a significant uptick in attacks on Waters from pro-Israeli news outlets. This week, I learned that there is actually an entire documentary film that's been shot, apparently with the sole objective of smearing him as an anti-Semite. 
> 
> While Waters is definitely an opponent of the current regime in Israel, and an advocate for Palestinian rights up to and including lending his support to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, I also have seen a lot of accusations made against him with little to zero supporting evidence (video, audio, etc). And I definitely think the attacks on him have taken on a dangerously aggressive tone.
> 
> And then, today, I ran across this article...
> 
> https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.819132?v=448801475EBF52877C3C6DDD9BA51DFF
> 
> 
> My first compulsion was to check with Snopes, even though the original article is from an Israeli paper, just to see if maybe I'd fallen for an elaborate prank. There I find...
> 
> https://www.snopes.com/texas-harvey-israel/
> 
> And as I read, my blood runs a little bit cold. 
> 
> So I guess my question to you folks here is... 
> 
> What the fuck is going on here? And in what universe does anyone think denying aid to victims of natural disasters unless they pledge never to take part in the BDS movement isn't going to backfire spectacularly?
> 
> Jerky
> 
> 	Virus-free. www.avg.com
> 

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Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l