Need to hear what some smart people have to say about this.

Sun Oct 29 14:37:24 CDT 2017

Hey, even strictly on a food level I'm an anti-zionist. I'll take brisket
and chopped liver on rye over a falafel sandwich any time!

On Oct 29, 2017 6:33 PM, "Mark Thibodeau" <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com> wrote:

> In case this was partially aimed at me, you bet your sweet bippy I see the
> rising tide of dangerously fascistic anti-Semitism on the Far Right (and
> acknowledge that there is, indeed, some of that on the conspiracy-minded
> Left, which is my home base, so it is a source of some shame). I am not
> even anti-Zionist. I admire Herzl and the leftish/democratic socialist
> version of Zionism, and feel that Israel is now, and should be, the
> homeland of the Jews. But the questions, I suppose, lie in, how best do we
> get there, as a planetary community? Because as incredibly talented a
> minority as they are, the Jews simply won't be able to do it entirely on
> their own.
>
> With love,
> Jerky / Mark T.
>
>
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>
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 6:57 PM, Laura Kelber <laurakelber at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This is a painful topic for me. I loathe the right-wing militaristic
>> Zionistic wing of Jewish identity. I come from the communist and/or
>> politically progressive, secular strain that helped shape the intellectual
>> life of NYC when I was growing up in the 60s. Now it's the rightwing
>> Orthodox and Hasidic Jews that dominate the Jewish community. Where the
>> hell did all the secular, progressive Jews go?!
>>
>> But much as I loathe both the American and Israeli strains of Zionism,
>> I'm hypersensitive to the antisemitism that simmers below the surface of a
>> lot of so-called progressive groups and individuals. A failure to recognize
>> and protest the antisemitism of the alt-right and white supremacists, for
>> example. A willingness to buy into the "rich Jewish banker" and
>> "Jewish-controlled media" stereotypes. Hell, I buy into some of those
>> stereotypes myself, sometimes. But I'm allowed to, because I'm Jewish.
>> Non-Jews, proceed with caution! I don't need a disclaimer about how your
>> best friend is Jewish, but I do need to hear an acknowledgement that
>> antisemitism exists and that Jews of any ideology have a right to be
>> paranoid about it.
>>
>> Even though antisemitic signs were prominently displayed in Charlotte,
>> VA, none of the knee jerk lefty emails I got mentioned antisemitism. It
>> just isn't sexy to decry antisemitism. Look, I can understand that. Black
>> people are beaten, murdered and incarcerated all over this country every
>> fucking day. That's not happening to Jews.
>>
>> But there is and always has been an antisemitic strain in this country,
>> and, perhaps stoked by the internet, it's become particularly virulent
>> lately. It was ever-present in the construction industry when I worked
>> there in the 80s and 90s. Job sites were frequently racially and ethnically
>> segregated, and I was often placed in the "Jew crew." Not uncommon for us
>> to bear the brunt of being "tightwad Jews" or, in my case, a "Jewess cunt."
>> "Hey, you know who the world's biggest cunt is? Hitler, 'cause he couldn't
>> even finish the job!" And so on.
>>
>> Just recently made the mistake of reading the comments on a mainstream
>> news story about Weinstein. The comments started in on the "typical Jewish"
>> behavior of that trio - Weinstein, Polanski and Woody Allen, then on to how
>> they were a disgrace to the white race, and finally, to an argument about
>> whether Jews could even be considered white.
>>
>> So, yeah, it's obnoxious when anyone who's legitimately outraged by
>> Israel's racist/militaristic actions gets branded an antisemite. But it
>> would be nice if those same anti-zionists expressed a little dismay over
>> the seething hatred of Jews that so many non-Jews seem to foster. Because
>> it's pretty disturbing.
>>
>> Laura
>>
>>
>> On Oct 28, 2017 4:41 PM, "da kid" <peterock86 at live.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* da kid <peterock86 at live.com>
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2017 8:05:33 AM
>>> *To:* Mark Thibodeau
>>> *Subject:* Re: Need to hear what some smart people have to say about
>>> this.
>>>
>>> Im not that smart but I think it is really really really sad that people
>>> feel they have to write a paragraph that attempts to prove they don't hate
>>> Jews before they can criticize Israel. I am also what you call a
>>> philo-semite but Israel's treatment of Palestine is abhorrent. The recent
>>> hubbub about Hebron, which is in Palestine, not being called Israeli is
>>> another recent example of false "anti-Semitism" accusations being thrown
>>> about. There is definitely a rich and powerful right wing pro Israeli lobby
>>> in America. That's not antiSemitic to say is it?
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* owner-pynchon-l at waste.org <owner-pynchon-l at waste.org> on behalf
>>> of Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2017 3:52:59 AM
>>> *To:* pynchon -l
>>> *Subject:* Need to hear what some smart people have to say about this.
>>>
>>> First things first... and I hate that I have to state this up front (but
>>> considering the subject matter, I feel that I must)... I am not an
>>> anti-Semite. In fact, if anything, I'm a Judeophile, or philo-Semite. Many
>>> of my heroes are Jews. I think Jewish women are among the world's must
>>> beautiful. I have many Jewish friends, some of whom are among my closest
>>> and most beloved. In short, I am no Jew-hater.
>>>
>>> But I'm also a huge fan or the musician Roger Waters. A lifelong admirer
>>> of both his music and his obvious sincere, passionately held beliefs.
>>> Lately, I've noticed a significant uptick in attacks on Waters from
>>> pro-Israeli news outlets. This week, I learned that there is actually an
>>> entire documentary film that's been shot, apparently with the sole
>>> objective of smearing him as an anti-Semite.
>>>
>>> While Waters is definitely an opponent of the current regime in Israel,
>>> and an advocate for Palestinian rights up to and including lending his
>>> support to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, I also
>>> have seen a lot of accusations made against him with little to zero
>>> supporting evidence (video, audio, etc). And I definitely think the attacks
>>> on him have taken on a dangerously aggressive tone.
>>>
>>> And then, today, I ran across this article...
>>>
>>> *https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.819132?v=448801475EBF52877C3C6DDD9BA51DFF
>>> <https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.819132?v=448801475EBF52877C3C6DDD9BA51DFF>*
>>>
>>> My first compulsion was to check with Snopes, even though the original
>>> article is from an Israeli paper, just to see if maybe I'd fallen for an
>>> elaborate prank. There I find...
>>>
>>> https://www.snopes.com/texas-harvey-israel/
>>>
>>> And as I read, my blood runs a little bit cold.
>>>
>>> So I guess my question to you folks here is...
>>>
>>> What the fuck is going on here? And in what universe does anyone think
>>> denying aid to victims of natural disasters unless they pledge never to
>>> take part in the BDS movement isn't going to backfire spectacularly?
>>>
>>> Jerky
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>
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