Another Pynchon theme manifesting again in the real world.

Sat Sep 9 11:15:16 CDT 2017

Just another real world tidbit from my coign of vantage THEN, within a
publishing company.

When Ken Kesey died, it was fascinating to see the sales of Sometimes a
Great Notion, always
lagging Cuckoo's Nest in sales, and probably still, pick up in sales as
many critics and lit types wrote about it
as comparatively neglected; and as the richer, better novel of Kesey's, the
one which will last longest
because among the best of its time.

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 7:03 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:

> I introduced Cuckoo's Nest after JT connected anarchism with carnival.
> And, because KK's second novel, _Sometimes a Great Notion_ is about
> work in the logging industry and a strike, and is perhaps the
> quintessential PNW novel, on that can be read with VL.
>
> Also, if you remember the CN film, you recall that Big Nurse is
> something of a evil bitch. Not exactly KK's idea. And in STAN we have
> many of the feminist themes we find in VL.
>
> In any event, the carnival in CN is the direct connection to the
> carnival in GR and to P's anarchism themes generally.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > What a wonderful book! Thanks for bringing it up. I always thought the
> movie
> > (that I saw some years after reading the book) much inferior.
> >
> > 2017-09-07 1:46 GMT+02:00 ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> Yeah, carnival can be one person's anarchy or silly.
> >>
> >> Ever read Cuckoo's Nest? Maybe that was a long time ago. And, well,
> >> with the film, most readers forget most of the details, so... and,
> >> well,  the book, KK's attempt to pay tribute to Melville and M-D, and,
> >> while at it,  write a GAN,  a counter cultural carnivalsque satire
> >> about work in America... the boys in the hospital decide to have a
> >> carnival. It's a break from the routine, the chores, the work. RPM is
> >> out to organize the boys into men, American men in a radical
> >> democracy. Now the Big Nurse, others might see a carnival as
> >> dangerous. There is something akin to anarchy in RPM and the boys when
> >> they become aware of their exploitation, of their potential to make
> >> meaningful play. What, with a homosexual, a half Indian, and the rest
> >> of the whole sick crew, their not exactly a labor force.
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivalesque
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:40 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> >> > I hear what you are saying, Anarchy seems llike a crazy goal. I hear a
> >> > difference between anarchy and anarchism. Anarchy is more frequently
> used to
> >> > describe a disorderly state than to describe a community without
> rulers. Old
> >> > growth forests have no rulers but they are rarely seen as anarchy.
> >> >
> >> > As far as human societies or times with no clear rulers or where power
> >> > is shared equally, it actually happens a lot, but mostly on a local
> level.
> >> > There are neighborhoods, towns, urban and rural communities where
> harmony is
> >> > stronger than tyranny, anyone can have a say if they are respectful to
> >> > others, and people cooperate to solve problems  and make their
> community
> >> > sustainable.. Often in these places there are obvious leaders , but
> they are
> >> > leaders because they are respected and generous , not because they
> domineer
> >> > in a hierarchical power structure.
> >> >
> >> > The issue of sustainability seems to me to go to the heart of all
> failed
> >> > systems. Is capitalism sustainable? Is fossil fuel based technology
> >> > sustainable? Is the rule of 51% sustainable? Oligarchy has endured
> for a
> >> > long time but is it sustainable?  Is american empire sustainable.
> >> >
> >> > The anarchist golf game may have seemed silly to you but it reminded
> me
> >> > of good times with crazy friends being goofy. Mardis Gras looks silly
> to
> >> > some but I can tell that for you it allows powerful self-liberation.
> Most
> >> > people have times in life of liberating rituals of rule -breaking and
> >> > mockery of sacred cows. The discussions that take place in the golf
> game are
> >> > really funny and actually rather subtle and intellectually lively.
> >> > When it came time to do something   at Yzles-Bains the anarchists at
> the
> >> > center of the story ended up with the unlikely focus of
> song-gathering in
> >> > Thrace looking for remnants of neo-Pythagoreans identifiable because
> they
> >> > favor the Phrygian musical mode.  We can’t entirely tell if it is a
> cover
> >> > story or simply a wacky pursuit that opens doors of synchronicity and
> puts
> >> > our merry band in the right place to see hope in the midst of horror
> and
> >> > discover their unexpected inner strength and heroism. Part of the
> goal is to
> >> > show readers more aspects of how the battle lines of a world war were
> in
> >> > place  before it began . For Reef, Cyprian and Yashmeen this
> gathering leads
> >> > them toward a period of profound transformation. To me the point is
> that
> >> > each person is very limited in what they can do, but there are
> avenues that
> >> > emerge from friendship and bold exploration that can effect powerful
> change.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> On Sep 4, 2017, at 5:35 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I only push this because Pynchon does, and it needs context.  For P,
> >> >> Anarchy goes back to GRs Zone, a place of crazy freedom in wake of
> total
> >> >> collapse, which can't be sustained.  It is not a model of sustained
> living,
> >> >> despite AGD's silly golf game.  It is a very short-lived thing.
> >> >>
> >> >> David Morris
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 4:16 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> So your anarchism jag isn't a real proscription.  It is a
> plaything.  A
> >> >> Pynchon fanboy thing.
> >> >>
> >> >> David Morris
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 3:57 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> Anarchism as I wrote about it here is working with whatever, jumping
> in
> >> >> spontaneously before or with  FEMA HELP and FEMA is goddam necessary
> OR
> >> >> ELSE. ...More incalculable deaths and reams of suffering and hurt.
> >> >>
> >> >> I wrote " part" of....not as a guiding political philosophy, like
> >> >> libertarianism, which is  perhaps the exact opposite of helping
> ANYONE but
> >> >> oneself. ...anarchism allows selflessness.
> >> >>
> >> >> I just read a decent piece about the horrible tornado in Kansas,
> >> >> killing more than Harvey has, and the gist was FEMA was invaluable
> for money
> >> >> (paid 90% of clean-up cost) and worked best when "spontaneous
> groups" --like
> >> >> churches-- local leaders and Orgs were the go-to ones for advice and
> >> >> disbursement.
> >> >>
> >> >> And I'm a big Govt " liberal" myself. Who loves selfless helping and
> >> >> dancing. Esp in musicals.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sep 4, 2017, at 1:59 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Anarchism is akin to Libertarianism: freedumb from guvmint!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Imagine a world in Houston without FEMA!  Such a dream!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> And no interstate highways!  And no EPA!  And no Medicare or Social
> >> >>> Security!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> You may sat I'm a dreamer, but they're about to be deported.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> David Morris
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:48 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>> Anarchism. Pervasive as we know (and been written about).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Anarchism, not as any kind of policy or new government notion but
> >> >>> precisely as getting shit done without government, outside of it.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The natural way hundreds of thousands of simple citizens
> >> >>> "self-organized"--
> >> >>> this is the key,-- like the deaf-mute dance under the bridge where
> >> >>> everyone
> >> >>> dances together without bumping with no one having to direct the
> >> >>> dancing--
> >> >>> like the search and rescue and help operation in Houston after
> Harvey.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Since a guy named Prince wrote about the "spontaneous groupings" of
> >> >>> volunteer
> >> >>> help after the Halifax explosion disaster , it has always been a
> part
> >> >>> of every disaster
> >> >>> since. They say.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Spontaneous groupings = self-organizing= equal apolitical,
> non-violent
> >> >>> anarchism in
> >> >>> the real world.
> >> >
> >> > -
> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >> -
> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >
> >
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
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