M & D Group Read (cont)

David Morris fqmorris at gmail.com
Wed Jan 10 16:22:55 CST 2018 

I don't buy the pagination theory either, for the reasons you cite.  Also,
if it were true, it would fall apart in any editions beyond the first one.

David Morris

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On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, I'm going to push back on the pagination possibility. We know that
> some of his books, M & D and Against the Day most memorably were
> being proofed, self-copyedited and corrected from proofs 'up until the
> last minute' as the phrase goes.
> Which would mean all pages after additional words were added (or cut)
> would start to change, have an effect on, usually the whole pagination
> set-up.
>
> Yes, it is possible, usually, that a typesetter could redo enough other
> lines on pages to enable certain items on certain pages to be on some
> symbolic
> page BUT I do not buy it here for M & D and with the famous citations re
> AtD, I think TRP just found them after production and played with them
> for marketing jive reasons....in fact, as another joke about NOT reading
> what is in front of us, the text.
>
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> What a wonderful fitting quote: yes, a God- (capped with Nick's
>> reasoning) like tale-telling circle Pynchon is drawing here, and there,
>> too.
>>
>> And yes, he seems to take pagination as seriously as his paragraphs.
>>
>> 2018-01-10 19:22 GMT+01:00 Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> "Voice unlocaliz'd" is also, I think, a yoo-hoo (you-who?) from TRP,
>>> whose narrative voices move with unique and subtle variety into and out of
>>> characters' consciousness -- freely in GR and AtD, more pinned to
>>> Cherrycoke and other within-the-novel narrators here. As one of those old
>>> Nicks said: "an infinite circle whose center is everywhere and whose
>>> circumference is nowhere."
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wow. Perfect  quote to provide contrast between edged, bordered,
>>>> localized  and myterious, unlocalized, radiant  center.  What is the
>>>> voice?. Conscience? Spirit? Deity? Dragon wisdom?
>>>>
>>>> This statement comes after Mason wonders about the consequences of
>>>> their borderline, whether  the good will outweigh the bad. The quote
>>>> appears to come from the duck but is sandwiched  without quote marks
>>>> between  the Ducks quoted response: ‘Wonder, that’s all?…"What about care
>>>> don’t you care?” The “one of the Enigmata…” statement becomes structurally
>>>> a dislocated example of what it is saying.
>>>>
>>>> Is the appearance of this intervention of unlocalized voice on page 666
>>>> satiric and light or a reference to the war between the NT book of
>>>> revelation Beast( having the number 666) and the risen Christ? P seems to
>>>> take pagination seriously but???
>>>>
>>>> Pushing the idea a bit, but well within the frequent role of spiritual
>>>> themes in M&D is the fact that Jesus in the NT frequently challenges
>>>> artificial lines including the authority of the Torah: “ You have heard it
>>>> said by them of old an eye for…….but I say “   “ It is not what goes into
>>>> the mouth that defiles.. but what comes from the heart..”  'Beware the
>>>> scribes and Pharisees who bind heavy burdens but don’t stoop to…’
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On Jan 8, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > "One of the Enigmata of the Invisible World, is how a Voice
>>>> unlocaliz’d may yet act powerfully as a moral Center." (666)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 12:32 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:00:35 -0500 (EST)
>>>> > From: Paul Mackin
>>>> > To:   pynchon-l@[omitted]
>>>> > Subject: The E-word
>>>> >
>>>> > Below are my notes on the occurence
>>>> >  of "edge" in M&D.
>>>> > Have no way of knowing how much underreporting there is.
>>>> > I read the book from start to finish and made a note
>>>> > whenever the word jumped out at me. As far as the most common
>>>> > usage of the word is concerned it would seem if anything that
>>>> > P is quite reticent, i.e., "edge" would occur with greater
>>>> > frequency  in average writing. However P's exotic usage of the
>>>> > word seems ABOVE average in frequency. This is just gut reaction. I
>>>> > haven't done any analysis.
>>>> >
>>>> >                       P.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > 10  It took me till I was lying among he Rats and Vermin, upon the
>>>> freezing
>>>> > edge of a Future invisible, to understand that my name had never been
>>>> my own,__
>>>> > 24  How is he  suppossed to ignore this pure Edge of blood-love?
>>>> > 34  --the Cold of apprpaching Night carrying an edge, the possiblity
>>>> that
>>>> > by
>>>> > Morning the Weather will be quite brisk indeed . . .
>>>> > 62   Somehwat as his Neighbors each strenuous Sunday profers belief
>>>> in the
>>>> > Great Struggle at the End of the World
>>>> > 93   Briefly we behold the gray edge of a cloud of despair . . .
>>>> > 110  Rol-ling out the Elkdge-ware Ro-od,--
>>>> > 121  'Tis the British Way to take the extra step that may one day
>>>> give us an
>>>> > Edge when we need one
>>>> > 137  "What?" Mason begins to edge toward the Tent opening.
>>>> > 132 Maskelyne's voice, in such times of stress, edges toward a
>>>> throat-bas'd
>>>> > Soprano
>>>> > 160  He was quite distraugh, and but a pace or two from the Edge of
>>>> the
>>>> > precipice.
>>>> > 171  She put upon her R the same vigorous Edge, as his father on a
>>>> difficult
>>>> > day,--
>>>> > 172 Maskelyne's Observing Suit is edging into Visability.
>>>> > 219  Over Wearside, here at Nightfall, exactly upon this Edge between
>>>> sunlight too bright to see much by and . . .
>>>> > 264 "My point exactly!" cries Ethelmer, who had been edging toward the
>>>> > Spirits, mindful that at some point he shall have to edge past his
>>>> cousin
>>>> > Tenebrae.
>>>> > 271  is slowly absorb'd into a mirthful Cloud of tartan-edg'd Emerald
>>>> > Green and luminous Coral Taffeta.
>>>> > 273  . . . sentimental ever held back even at the Edge of breaking
>>>> forth, in
>>>> > Fragments, as Glass breaks.
>>>> > 309  . . . the dogs run obssessibely to and fro, all 'round the Edges,
>>>> > faces a-twist with Efforts to understand
>>>> > 324  by which if he kept to a Fiduciary Edge of Right Procedure, he
>>>> might
>>>> > profit, whilst retaining his Sanity.
>>>> > 329 . . . will have found its way by the poundful up the nostrils and
>>>> > into the brains of these by then alert youths, lending a feverish edge
>>>> > to all they  speak and do.
>>>> > 337  . . . suggesting locating the exact center of New Castle by
>>>> taking
>>>> > a sheet of paper showing a map of the Town, trimming 'round the edges
>>>> > til only the Town remains, . . .
>>>> > 338  . . . , but fifteen years ago in the era of Don Vicente Lopez,
>>>> there
>>>> > was an apprehenisve Edge in this Town as soon as the Sun went down,
>>>> > that . . .
>>>> > 345 He sets his Lips as for a conventional, or Toroidal, Smoke_Ring,
>>>> but out
>>>> > instead comes a Ring like a Length of Ribbon clos'd in a Circle, with
>>>> a
>>>> > single Twist in it, possessing thereby but one Side and one Edge . . .
>>>> > (elipsis in  original)
>>>> > 354  Then one has Mr. Edgewise . . . . (eilips in orig.)
>>>> > 383  A close observer, did one attend, might see him begin to flicker
>>>> > 'round the edges.
>>>> > 387  Taking what seems far too long, he peers up and down the newly
>>>> > glitt'ring Edge, . . .
>>>> > 387  She is so flabber-gasting this Macaroni with it that he seems to
>>>> fall
>>>> > into a contemplative Daze before the deep Undulations, a Dreamer at
>>>> the
>>>> > Edge of the Sea.
>>>> > 387  I am become a Target for his Instruments edg'd and pointed.
>>>> > 395  There is an Edge to Young Romance, this year, that none of those
>>>> > testing its Sharpness may recoginize, quite yet.
>>>> > 396  Three young Ladies are peeping 'round the 'Door-way, like
>>>> shorebirds
>>>> > at the edge of the Water, stepping nicely in and out of that Aura of
>>>> > Tobacco-Smoke that Men for centluries have understood keeps women away
>>>> > as well as were they Bug
>>>> >
>>>> > 401  We've seen 'em all, all manner of Traveler, saints and sinners,
>>>> green
>>>> > and season'd some who could teach Eels to wriggle and some who were
>>>> pure
>>>> > fiduciary Edge, and I'll tell you, this one . . . I don't know.
>>>> > 403  The Telescpe stands in its own Window'd Observatory at the Top of
>>>> > the House, before it the Edge of the River, . . .
>>>> > 406  The tone balanc'd upon a Blade's Edge, between Pity and Contempt.
>>>> > 415 Whereupon a golden Edge of Pleasure proceeds to bisect him
>>>> upwardly
>>>> > all the way from his Ballocks to his heart, which these days is a
>>>> > lengthy journey.
>>>> > 416 advised by friend and enemy that his only decent course would be
>>>> to
>>>> > step off the Edge of the World.--
>>>> > 423 "What, this? 'tis a Tub, Sir." Hoping the Echo may give him and
>>>> Edge.
>>>> > 450  "Why are you all edging away from me like that?"
>>>> > 441  . . . curiously prostrated before the chunk of Rose Quartz where
>>>> > cross the Latitude of the south Edge of Philadelphia . . .
>>>> > 485  then returning to this Radiance that flares from behind edges of
>>>> > Shapes uncertain,--
>>>> > 517  reaching with her arms, run to the roof's edge and into the Air,
>>>> . .
>>>> > 528  . . . tho their Wonderful Telegraph gives them in that Article
>>>> > an Edge over the rest of Christendom, . . .
>>>> > 545 .. .  for the struggle Zarpazo and I must enact upon the very
>>>> mortal
>>>> > Edge of this great Torrent of Sha,--
>>>> > 561  . . . then at the edges of my vision, Blurs appear'd, . . .
>>>> > 577 . . . Ev'rybody's feeling edgy.
>>>> > 589 --flowing up over the edge . . . indeed, it keeps coming for
>>>> longer
>>>> > than it should.
>>>> > 592  . . . with hundreds of firmly attach'd sword-quality Blades,
>>>> whose
>>>> > hone edges flicker with sanguinary light.
>>>> > 594  looking for someone who can help him out of the edg'd ,and now
>>>> > perhaps even venomous, iron weapon he is wearing.
>>>> > 597  The breeze has a cold edge.
>>>> > 601  Yet removing Trees to create a pair of perfectly straight Edges,
>>>> > is to invite Sha, . . .
>>>> > 638  form up at the western edge of town, . . .
>>>> > 650 --thro' some Energy  unknown, ever are we haunted by the Edge
>>>> > so precise, so near.
>>>> > 553  as if they liv'd at the edge of some great lighted Sky-Structure,
>>>> > 692  Smugglers of Tobacco, Dye-stuffs, and edg'd Implements flee their
>>>> > Storage-Cabins in the middle of the night,
>>>> > 697  at which point the Enterpriser has edg'd his way as far as the
>>>> door.
>>>> > 704  saw at the edges of Rooms from the corners of Eyes, shouted to up
>>>> > or down a Visto.
>>>> > 746  As if here, at the Edge of the World,
>>>> > 752  The Fret has gather'd in the waste places, cross'd them, and come
>>>> > to the Edge of the Town.
>>>> > 754 Busy withd rebellion, America drew back toward the edges of
>>>> Dixon's
>>>> > Frame, where the shadows gather'd.
>>>> > 758  and so she turn'd terrible, as she had ever been a shadow's Edge
>>>> away
>>>> > from doing anyway.
>>>> > 766  At the last of the Day-light, providentially, at the Edge of
>>>> York,
>>>> > they smell wood-smoke with a sensible Fat Component,
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 4:42 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > in the chapters around the LED, there are lots of
>>>> > animal references. Ape. The LED lusting after blood
>>>> > at Cock-Fights. "How is he supposed to ignore this Edge of
>>>> blood-love?"--another Bleeding Edge allusion
>>>> > and the edge itself--not around the edges as Joseph recently noted ---
>>>> > is another hard geometric bad shit trope in Pynchon.
>>>> >
>>>> > "Back at the Cock-Fights", Fender-Belly Bodine.....I seem to just now
>>>> notice that the Cock-Fights were ongoing
>>>> > fictionally in the whole chapter...a backdrop of the whole LED
>>>> section....
>>>> >
>>>> > There are the lines about the LED being like a human.
>>>> >
>>>> > In the wake of the Age of Reason, with the LED as the synecdoche,
>>>> > it seems Pynchon wants to remind us--delightfully, of course, yet
>>>> fully---that we
>>>> > are still animals, enjoying Cock-Fights---"that Substance which we
>>>> are not
>>>> > supposed to acknowledge drips and flies 'ev'rywhere.." Humans, like
>>>> the LED,
>>>> > will not acknowledge the blood upon which their lives rest.
>>>> >
>>>> > In a notional associative way, I remember that luxury liner in AtD
>>>> which is also
>>>> > a battleship albeit unknown to the luxury travelers.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > What was that line some Big Political Leader Guy said, last century,
>>>> when asked
>>>> > about the salutary effects of The Enlightenment on the world?
>>>> > "I'm still waiting to see it." (very paraphrased and shaky memory)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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