M & D Group Read (cont)

Mark Kohut mark.kohut at gmail.com
Wed Jan 10 16:24:10 CST 2018 

Also true.

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 5:22 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't buy the pagination theory either, for the reasons you cite.  Also,
> if it were true, it would fall apart in any editions beyond the first one.
>
> David Morris
>
>
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> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, I'm going to push back on the pagination possibility. We know that
>> some of his books, M & D and Against the Day most memorably were
>> being proofed, self-copyedited and corrected from proofs 'up until the
>> last minute' as the phrase goes.
>> Which would mean all pages after additional words were added (or cut)
>> would start to change, have an effect on, usually the whole pagination
>> set-up.
>>
>> Yes, it is possible, usually, that a typesetter could redo enough other
>> lines on pages to enable certain items on certain pages to be on some
>> symbolic
>> page BUT I do not buy it here for M & D and with the famous citations re
>> AtD, I think TRP just found them after production and played with them
>> for marketing jive reasons....in fact, as another joke about NOT reading
>> what is in front of us, the text.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What a wonderful fitting quote: yes, a God- (capped with Nick's
>>> reasoning) like tale-telling circle Pynchon is drawing here, and there,
>>> too.
>>>
>>> And yes, he seems to take pagination as seriously as his paragraphs.
>>>
>>> 2018-01-10 19:22 GMT+01:00 Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> "Voice unlocaliz'd" is also, I think, a yoo-hoo (you-who?) from TRP,
>>>> whose narrative voices move with unique and subtle variety into and out of
>>>> characters' consciousness -- freely in GR and AtD, more pinned to
>>>> Cherrycoke and other within-the-novel narrators here. As one of those old
>>>> Nicks said: "an infinite circle whose center is everywhere and whose
>>>> circumference is nowhere."
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wow. Perfect  quote to provide contrast between edged, bordered,
>>>>> localized  and myterious, unlocalized, radiant  center.  What is the
>>>>> voice?. Conscience? Spirit? Deity? Dragon wisdom?
>>>>>
>>>>> This statement comes after Mason wonders about the consequences of
>>>>> their borderline, whether  the good will outweigh the bad. The quote
>>>>> appears to come from the duck but is sandwiched  without quote marks
>>>>> between  the Ducks quoted response: ‘Wonder, that’s all?…"What about care
>>>>> don’t you care?” The “one of the Enigmata…” statement becomes structurally
>>>>> a dislocated example of what it is saying.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the appearance of this intervention of unlocalized voice on page
>>>>> 666 satiric and light or a reference to the war between the NT book of
>>>>> revelation Beast( having the number 666) and the risen Christ? P seems to
>>>>> take pagination seriously but???
>>>>>
>>>>> Pushing the idea a bit, but well within the frequent role of spiritual
>>>>> themes in M&D is the fact that Jesus in the NT frequently challenges
>>>>> artificial lines including the authority of the Torah: “ You have heard it
>>>>> said by them of old an eye for…….but I say “   “ It is not what goes into
>>>>> the mouth that defiles.. but what comes from the heart..”  'Beware the
>>>>> scribes and Pharisees who bind heavy burdens but don’t stoop to…’
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > On Jan 8, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > "One of the Enigmata of the Invisible World, is how a Voice
>>>>> unlocaliz’d may yet act powerfully as a moral Center." (666)
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 12:32 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:00:35 -0500 (EST)
>>>>> > From: Paul Mackin
>>>>> > To:   pynchon-l@[omitted]
>>>>> > Subject: The E-word
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Below are my notes on the occurence
>>>>> >  of "edge" in M&D.
>>>>> > Have no way of knowing how much underreporting there is.
>>>>> > I read the book from start to finish and made a note
>>>>> > whenever the word jumped out at me. As far as the most common
>>>>> > usage of the word is concerned it would seem if anything that
>>>>> > P is quite reticent, i.e., "edge" would occur with greater
>>>>> > frequency  in average writing. However P's exotic usage of the
>>>>> > word seems ABOVE average in frequency. This is just gut reaction. I
>>>>> > haven't done any analysis.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >                       P.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 10  It took me till I was lying among he Rats and Vermin, upon the
>>>>> freezing
>>>>> > edge of a Future invisible, to understand that my name had never
>>>>> been my own,__
>>>>> > 24  How is he  suppossed to ignore this pure Edge of blood-love?
>>>>> > 34  --the Cold of apprpaching Night carrying an edge, the possiblity
>>>>> that
>>>>> > by
>>>>> > Morning the Weather will be quite brisk indeed . . .
>>>>> > 62   Somehwat as his Neighbors each strenuous Sunday profers belief
>>>>> in the
>>>>> > Great Struggle at the End of the World
>>>>> > 93   Briefly we behold the gray edge of a cloud of despair . . .
>>>>> > 110  Rol-ling out the Elkdge-ware Ro-od,--
>>>>> > 121  'Tis the British Way to take the extra step that may one day
>>>>> give us an
>>>>> > Edge when we need one
>>>>> > 137  "What?" Mason begins to edge toward the Tent opening.
>>>>> > 132 Maskelyne's voice, in such times of stress, edges toward a
>>>>> throat-bas'd
>>>>> > Soprano
>>>>> > 160  He was quite distraugh, and but a pace or two from the Edge of
>>>>> the
>>>>> > precipice.
>>>>> > 171  She put upon her R the same vigorous Edge, as his father on a
>>>>> difficult
>>>>> > day,--
>>>>> > 172 Maskelyne's Observing Suit is edging into Visability.
>>>>> > 219  Over Wearside, here at Nightfall, exactly upon this Edge
>>>>> between sunlight too bright to see much by and . . .
>>>>> > 264 "My point exactly!" cries Ethelmer, who had been edging toward
>>>>> the
>>>>> > Spirits, mindful that at some point he shall have to edge past his
>>>>> cousin
>>>>> > Tenebrae.
>>>>> > 271  is slowly absorb'd into a mirthful Cloud of tartan-edg'd Emerald
>>>>> > Green and luminous Coral Taffeta.
>>>>> > 273  . . . sentimental ever held back even at the Edge of breaking
>>>>> forth, in
>>>>> > Fragments, as Glass breaks.
>>>>> > 309  . . . the dogs run obssessibely to and fro, all 'round the
>>>>> Edges,
>>>>> > faces a-twist with Efforts to understand
>>>>> > 324  by which if he kept to a Fiduciary Edge of Right Procedure, he
>>>>> might
>>>>> > profit, whilst retaining his Sanity.
>>>>> > 329 . . . will have found its way by the poundful up the nostrils and
>>>>> > into the brains of these by then alert youths, lending a feverish
>>>>> edge
>>>>> > to all they  speak and do.
>>>>> > 337  . . . suggesting locating the exact center of New Castle by
>>>>> taking
>>>>> > a sheet of paper showing a map of the Town, trimming 'round the edges
>>>>> > til only the Town remains, . . .
>>>>> > 338  . . . , but fifteen years ago in the era of Don Vicente Lopez,
>>>>> there
>>>>> > was an apprehenisve Edge in this Town as soon as the Sun went down,
>>>>> > that . . .
>>>>> > 345 He sets his Lips as for a conventional, or Toroidal, Smoke_Ring,
>>>>> but out
>>>>> > instead comes a Ring like a Length of Ribbon clos'd in a Circle,
>>>>> with a
>>>>> > single Twist in it, possessing thereby but one Side and one Edge . .
>>>>> .
>>>>> > (elipsis in  original)
>>>>> > 354  Then one has Mr. Edgewise . . . . (eilips in orig.)
>>>>> > 383  A close observer, did one attend, might see him begin to flicker
>>>>> > 'round the edges.
>>>>> > 387  Taking what seems far too long, he peers up and down the newly
>>>>> > glitt'ring Edge, . . .
>>>>> > 387  She is so flabber-gasting this Macaroni with it that he seems
>>>>> to fall
>>>>> > into a contemplative Daze before the deep Undulations, a Dreamer at
>>>>> the
>>>>> > Edge of the Sea.
>>>>> > 387  I am become a Target for his Instruments edg'd and pointed.
>>>>> > 395  There is an Edge to Young Romance, this year, that none of those
>>>>> > testing its Sharpness may recoginize, quite yet.
>>>>> > 396  Three young Ladies are peeping 'round the 'Door-way, like
>>>>> shorebirds
>>>>> > at the edge of the Water, stepping nicely in and out of that Aura of
>>>>> > Tobacco-Smoke that Men for centluries have understood keeps women
>>>>> away
>>>>> > as well as were they Bug
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 401  We've seen 'em all, all manner of Traveler, saints and sinners,
>>>>> green
>>>>> > and season'd some who could teach Eels to wriggle and some who were
>>>>> pure
>>>>> > fiduciary Edge, and I'll tell you, this one . . . I don't know.
>>>>> > 403  The Telescpe stands in its own Window'd Observatory at the Top
>>>>> of
>>>>> > the House, before it the Edge of the River, . . .
>>>>> > 406  The tone balanc'd upon a Blade's Edge, between Pity and
>>>>> Contempt.
>>>>> > 415 Whereupon a golden Edge of Pleasure proceeds to bisect him
>>>>> upwardly
>>>>> > all the way from his Ballocks to his heart, which these days is a
>>>>> > lengthy journey.
>>>>> > 416 advised by friend and enemy that his only decent course would be
>>>>> to
>>>>> > step off the Edge of the World.--
>>>>> > 423 "What, this? 'tis a Tub, Sir." Hoping the Echo may give him and
>>>>> Edge.
>>>>> > 450  "Why are you all edging away from me like that?"
>>>>> > 441  . . . curiously prostrated before the chunk of Rose Quartz where
>>>>> > cross the Latitude of the south Edge of Philadelphia . . .
>>>>> > 485  then returning to this Radiance that flares from behind edges of
>>>>> > Shapes uncertain,--
>>>>> > 517  reaching with her arms, run to the roof's edge and into the
>>>>> Air, . .
>>>>> > 528  . . . tho their Wonderful Telegraph gives them in that Article
>>>>> > an Edge over the rest of Christendom, . . .
>>>>> > 545 .. .  for the struggle Zarpazo and I must enact upon the very
>>>>> mortal
>>>>> > Edge of this great Torrent of Sha,--
>>>>> > 561  . . . then at the edges of my vision, Blurs appear'd, . . .
>>>>> > 577 . . . Ev'rybody's feeling edgy.
>>>>> > 589 --flowing up over the edge . . . indeed, it keeps coming for
>>>>> longer
>>>>> > than it should.
>>>>> > 592  . . . with hundreds of firmly attach'd sword-quality Blades,
>>>>> whose
>>>>> > hone edges flicker with sanguinary light.
>>>>> > 594  looking for someone who can help him out of the edg'd ,and now
>>>>> > perhaps even venomous, iron weapon he is wearing.
>>>>> > 597  The breeze has a cold edge.
>>>>> > 601  Yet removing Trees to create a pair of perfectly straight Edges,
>>>>> > is to invite Sha, . . .
>>>>> > 638  form up at the western edge of town, . . .
>>>>> > 650 --thro' some Energy  unknown, ever are we haunted by the Edge
>>>>> > so precise, so near.
>>>>> > 553  as if they liv'd at the edge of some great lighted
>>>>> Sky-Structure,
>>>>> > 692  Smugglers of Tobacco, Dye-stuffs, and edg'd Implements flee
>>>>> their
>>>>> > Storage-Cabins in the middle of the night,
>>>>> > 697  at which point the Enterpriser has edg'd his way as far as the
>>>>> door.
>>>>> > 704  saw at the edges of Rooms from the corners of Eyes, shouted to
>>>>> up
>>>>> > or down a Visto.
>>>>> > 746  As if here, at the Edge of the World,
>>>>> > 752  The Fret has gather'd in the waste places, cross'd them, and
>>>>> come
>>>>> > to the Edge of the Town.
>>>>> > 754 Busy withd rebellion, America drew back toward the edges of
>>>>> Dixon's
>>>>> > Frame, where the shadows gather'd.
>>>>> > 758  and so she turn'd terrible, as she had ever been a shadow's
>>>>> Edge away
>>>>> > from doing anyway.
>>>>> > 766  At the last of the Day-light, providentially, at the Edge of
>>>>> York,
>>>>> > they smell wood-smoke with a sensible Fat Component,
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 4:42 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > in the chapters around the LED, there are lots of
>>>>> > animal references. Ape. The LED lusting after blood
>>>>> > at Cock-Fights. "How is he supposed to ignore this Edge of
>>>>> blood-love?"--another Bleeding Edge allusion
>>>>> > and the edge itself--not around the edges as Joseph recently noted
>>>>> ---
>>>>> > is another hard geometric bad shit trope in Pynchon.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > "Back at the Cock-Fights", Fender-Belly Bodine.....I seem to just
>>>>> now notice that the Cock-Fights were ongoing
>>>>> > fictionally in the whole chapter...a backdrop of the whole LED
>>>>> section....
>>>>> >
>>>>> > There are the lines about the LED being like a human.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In the wake of the Age of Reason, with the LED as the synecdoche,
>>>>> > it seems Pynchon wants to remind us--delightfully, of course, yet
>>>>> fully---that we
>>>>> > are still animals, enjoying Cock-Fights---"that Substance which we
>>>>> are not
>>>>> > supposed to acknowledge drips and flies 'ev'rywhere.." Humans, like
>>>>> the LED,
>>>>> > will not acknowledge the blood upon which their lives rest.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In a notional associative way, I remember that luxury liner in AtD
>>>>> which is also
>>>>> > a battleship albeit unknown to the luxury travelers.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > What was that line some Big Political Leader Guy said, last century,
>>>>> when asked
>>>>> > about the salutary effects of The Enlightenment on the world?
>>>>> > "I'm still waiting to see it." (very paraphrased and shaky memory)
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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