More underestimation of the Russians ' effect on the 2016 US election and government
Joseph Tracy
brook7 at sover.net
Mon Jan 21 16:26:09 CST 2019
Every poll showed Bernie winning and most showed Hillary losing or dead heat. That seems to indicate that it is politically possible just as Corbyn’s rise in the UK shows a dramatic shift in political possibilities there in the face of mocking derision from the neoliberal rags like the Independent. The inescapable issue is there really is no neo-liberal option that will stop global catastrophe. Are Pynchon heads so universally resigned to the current madness. Is it so painful in the UK to have universal health care ? Because let me tell you what it is like to see people lose their life savings to get medical care. If that is redundant, give me redundant.
Do any of you have the guts to imagine anything other than global self destruction through overconsumption? Is this your great wisdom accumulated over a life time - to give up in utter cynicism? I don’t get it. What we face is worse than the 3rd reich. Look at the sacrifices made and the volunteers summoned by that threat. Of course it COULD happen, but only if we demand leaders up to the task. The problem is not Russia. The problem is not Trump, nor immigration, nor terrorism. The problem is predatory capitalism unrestrained by biospheric common sense.
> On Jan 20, 2019, at 1:17 PM, Mike Weaver <mike.weaver at zen.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Socialism's not an unchanging thing - same outcome guaranteed each time - it's a tradition of resistance and challenge to capitalism. It's been tried over and over in different ways since the Paris Commune, and will be tried again many more before it becomes redundant.
>
> On 20/01/2019 14:33, Mike Jing wrote:
>> Ah, socialism. I guess nobody has tried that one yet.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 6:52 AM Mike Weaver <mike.weaver at zen.co.uk <mailto:mike.weaver at zen.co.uk>> wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately Joseph, that is an obviously idealistic solution not an
>> obvious political one. Political solutions start from what is and
>> have a
>> way to what will be. Since socialism became popular at the end of the
>> 19th C, millions of people have worked on a political solution to the
>> class division of society and it isn't clear if a lasting one has yet
>> been found. Them having the guns, the good Jim nonwithstanding, has
>> proved the clincher, despite us having the numbers.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> On 20/01/2019 06:55, Joseph Tracy wrote:
>> > The thing is that there is a screamingly obvious political
>> solution: Fuck the the rich and put everyone underpaid or
>> unemployed , black brown and white, to good paying work on a
>> sustainable green economy, make the quality standards of the
>> project extremely high, modeled after the best green tech in the
>> world . Good medical care for all . Collect taxes from everyone
>> and move a serious chunk of the war money into more peaceful
>> investments. This is not only possible, It is a proven message
>> as Bernie showed when he drew the fastest growing crowds and
>> attracted more grassroots money than anyone for a long time with
>> complete antipathy from the media who gave more time to Trump’s
>> empty podium.
>> >
>> >> On Jan 19, 2019, at 10:30 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
>> <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Obviously all goods and services are consumed by consumers.
>> People like to be comfortable . But consumers don’t decide to
>> wrap practially every object in a plastic bubble, consumers don’t
>> choose to ship everything from China, consumers don’t pump
>> millions of barrels of oil while lying about global warming
>> despite internal corporate research, or corrupt the voting and
>> political system. Consumers do not spend millions to make
>> environmental policies that allow Dow to dump toxics into local
>> water supplies. A handful of greedy people shape those policies
>> for short term gains. Global environmental movements are huge and
>> almost completely ignored on a global scale, largely because of
>> the US government ( either party, both shitty on fossil fuels)
>> >> Some countries have better policies and practices but they
>> are often punished and there is a great deal of economic,
>> political and military bullying that shapes global policies. If
>> the US can persuade people to support insane wars that make
>> billions for a few, surely that power could be used to stand
>> behind environmentally sound cradle-to-grave responsibility for
>> manufacturers and a deep move toward sustainable energy policies.
>> There are very few things that cannot be made sustainably.
>> >> Consumer habits obviously have to change. We cannot consume
>> beef and fish at the current rate using current practices. Plastic
>> has to be severly cut back. Investments in Conservation of heat
>> and transport are needed in a massive green new deal. The
>> products we use should have far longer lifespans and longer
>> warranties and be reasonably repairable. There should be a high
>> cost to the manufacturer or consumer to dispose of non recyclables
>> >> It is when and what needs to change that reveals the
>> entrenched power of the corporatized and militarized government.
>> But our personal addictions are also critical: Lifetime personal
>> air travel needs to be severely rationed, all forms of greenhouse
>> gas producing non-renewable energy need to be downgraded to zero
>> with all due speed.
>> >> These goals are not insane, but they sound insane to those
>> who have adapted themselves To a world in which
>> >> Approximately 82 percent of the money generated last year went
>> to the richest 1 percent of the global population, the report
>> said, while the poorest half saw no increase at all
>> >> Last year, Oxfam said billionaires saw an uptick of $762
>> billion — enough to end extreme poverty seven times over
>> >> OXFAM numbers published by CNBC
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Consumers have huge environmental impact
>> >>>
>> >>> We like to blame the government or industries for the Earth's
>> >>> problems, but what we buy makes a big difference
>> >>>
>> >>> Date:February 24, 2016Source:Norwegian University of Science and
>> >>> TechnologySummary:You won't make big cuts in your
>> environmental impact
>> >>> by taking shorter showers or turning out the lights. The real
>> >>> environmental problem, a new analysis has shown, is embodied
>> in the
>> >>> things you buy.
>> >>>
>> >>> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160224132923.htm
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 8:15 PM jody2.718
>> <jody2.718 at protonmail.com <mailto:jody2.718 at protonmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>>> I got to go with Rich on this one. All the influences that
>> Joseph names are minuscule compared the daily heedless consumption
>> and pooping into the environment of toxic, non-recyclable garbage
>> by the average citizen. All the malevolent forces involved with
>> the control of production and marketing of.same would dry up and
>> blow away if ordinary people stopped consuming those overly
>> convenient, and generally useless, products. They (we) won't and
>> so we're probably doomed, sooner rather then later.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> jody
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Richard:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I don’t deny these elements exist. I just think the world sub
>> rosa is a chaotic place. I don’t believe anyone is running
>> anything. It’s this vast convoluted horrific at times nexus of
>> ever changing alliances, some good some bad
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Jan 10, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at
>> sover.net <http://sover.net>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> It is actually much easier for most to believe there is no
>> deep state. That seems rather naive at this point. I would be
>> happy to elaborate on what that means to me and to those who use
>> this particular phrase. What most mean is the nexus of several
>> forces: 1) Central bankers and the multi-national corporate
>> lawyers who have elaborated a system of tax avoidance and who
>> shape trade policy, often directly writing that policy( as opposed
>> to theoretically sovereign representative governments) 2) All the
>> secretive spy agencies British, US, Israeli, Germany, French… and
>> their connections to fundamental international policies of the
>> Nato Powers and the dollar as international reserve currency. 3)
>> The neo -liberal corporate or state owned media that dominates the
>> international media landscape 4) the power and influence of the
>> fossil fuel industry in all its forms. 5) the arms and war industry
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> All of these forces combine to endorse and enforce the
>> powers of capitalism and militarism wherever these combined
>> interests wish to override any of the following democratic forces:
>> independent democratic choices by voters, accountability of the
>> rich for financial or environmental crimes, accountability of
>> warcrimes and those who perpetrate them etc., accountability of
>> corporate human crimes like Bhopal, asbestos exposure, carcinogen
>> exposure, or global warming, accountability for dumping of
>> plastics and toxics etc., accountability for interference in
>> democratic processes( Chile, Venezuela,Tibet, Nicaragua, Iran,
>> Brazil, Argentina, Honduras, Dominican Republic, Vietnam…. very
>> long list)
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The deep state evolved at the nexus of government, military
>> and money interests to protect the long term interests of powerful
>> capitalists and imperial armies from the prospect of democratic
>> movements that seek to put human and environmental issues above
>> financial profit for the elite and the sick pride of imperial
>> colonialist dominance.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> --
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