More underestimation of the Russians ' effect on the 2016 US election and government
rich
richard.romeo at gmail.com
Mon Jan 21 20:02:12 CST 2019
this seems something you'd like, my friend
https://www.galleybeggar.co.uk/shop-1/ducks-newburyport
as for what the problem is. the answer will unfortunately bring much blood
shed
rich
On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 5:32 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> Every poll showed Bernie winning and most showed Hillary losing or dead
> heat. That seems to indicate that it is politically possible just as
> Corbyn’s rise in the UK shows a dramatic shift in political possibilities
> there in the face of mocking derision from the neoliberal rags like the
> Independent. The inescapable issue is there really is no neo-liberal option
> that will stop global catastrophe. Are Pynchon heads so universally
> resigned to the current madness. Is it so painful in the UK to have
> universal health care ? Because let me tell you what it is like to see
> people lose their life savings to get medical care. If that is redundant,
> give me redundant.
>
> Do any of you have the guts to imagine anything other than global self
> destruction through overconsumption? Is this your great wisdom accumulated
> over a life time - to give up in utter cynicism? I don’t get it. What we
> face is worse than the 3rd reich. Look at the sacrifices made and the
> volunteers summoned by that threat. Of course it COULD happen, but only if
> we demand leaders up to the task. The problem is not Russia. The problem is
> not Trump, nor immigration, nor terrorism. The problem is predatory
> capitalism unrestrained by biospheric common sense.
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 20, 2019, at 1:17 PM, Mike Weaver <mike.weaver at zen.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Socialism's not an unchanging thing - same outcome guaranteed each time
> - it's a tradition of resistance and challenge to capitalism. It's been
> tried over and over in different ways since the Paris Commune, and will be
> tried again many more before it becomes redundant.
> >
> > On 20/01/2019 14:33, Mike Jing wrote:
> >> Ah, socialism. I guess nobody has tried that one yet.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 6:52 AM Mike Weaver <mike.weaver at zen.co.uk
> <mailto:mike.weaver at zen.co.uk>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Unfortunately Joseph, that is an obviously idealistic solution not an
> >> obvious political one. Political solutions start from what is and
> >> have a
> >> way to what will be. Since socialism became popular at the end of the
> >> 19th C, millions of people have worked on a political solution to the
> >> class division of society and it isn't clear if a lasting one has yet
> >> been found. Them having the guns, the good Jim nonwithstanding, has
> >> proved the clincher, despite us having the numbers.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 20/01/2019 06:55, Joseph Tracy wrote:
> >> > The thing is that there is a screamingly obvious political
> >> solution: Fuck the the rich and put everyone underpaid or
> >> unemployed , black brown and white, to good paying work on a
> >> sustainable green economy, make the quality standards of the
> >> project extremely high, modeled after the best green tech in the
> >> world . Good medical care for all . Collect taxes from everyone
> >> and move a serious chunk of the war money into more peaceful
> >> investments. This is not only possible, It is a proven message
> >> as Bernie showed when he drew the fastest growing crowds and
> >> attracted more grassroots money than anyone for a long time with
> >> complete antipathy from the media who gave more time to Trump’s
> >> empty podium.
> >> >
> >> >> On Jan 19, 2019, at 10:30 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
> >> <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Obviously all goods and services are consumed by consumers.
> >> People like to be comfortable . But consumers don’t decide to
> >> wrap practially every object in a plastic bubble, consumers don’t
> >> choose to ship everything from China, consumers don’t pump
> >> millions of barrels of oil while lying about global warming
> >> despite internal corporate research, or corrupt the voting and
> >> political system. Consumers do not spend millions to make
> >> environmental policies that allow Dow to dump toxics into local
> >> water supplies. A handful of greedy people shape those policies
> >> for short term gains. Global environmental movements are huge and
> >> almost completely ignored on a global scale, largely because of
> >> the US government ( either party, both shitty on fossil fuels)
> >> >> Some countries have better policies and practices but they
> >> are often punished and there is a great deal of economic,
> >> political and military bullying that shapes global policies. If
> >> the US can persuade people to support insane wars that make
> >> billions for a few, surely that power could be used to stand
> >> behind environmentally sound cradle-to-grave responsibility for
> >> manufacturers and a deep move toward sustainable energy policies.
> >> There are very few things that cannot be made sustainably.
> >> >> Consumer habits obviously have to change. We cannot consume
> >> beef and fish at the current rate using current practices. Plastic
> >> has to be severly cut back. Investments in Conservation of heat
> >> and transport are needed in a massive green new deal. The
> >> products we use should have far longer lifespans and longer
> >> warranties and be reasonably repairable. There should be a high
> >> cost to the manufacturer or consumer to dispose of non recyclables
> >> >> It is when and what needs to change that reveals the
> >> entrenched power of the corporatized and militarized government.
> >> But our personal addictions are also critical: Lifetime personal
> >> air travel needs to be severely rationed, all forms of greenhouse
> >> gas producing non-renewable energy need to be downgraded to zero
> >> with all due speed.
> >> >> These goals are not insane, but they sound insane to those
> >> who have adapted themselves To a world in which
> >> >> Approximately 82 percent of the money generated last year went
> >> to the richest 1 percent of the global population, the report
> >> said, while the poorest half saw no increase at all
> >> >> Last year, Oxfam said billionaires saw an uptick of $762
> >> billion — enough to end extreme poverty seven times over
> >> >> OXFAM numbers published by CNBC
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> Consumers have huge environmental impact
> >> >>>
> >> >>> We like to blame the government or industries for the Earth's
> >> >>> problems, but what we buy makes a big difference
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Date:February 24, 2016Source:Norwegian University of Science and
> >> >>> TechnologySummary:You won't make big cuts in your
> >> environmental impact
> >> >>> by taking shorter showers or turning out the lights. The real
> >> >>> environmental problem, a new analysis has shown, is embodied
> >> in the
> >> >>> things you buy.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160224132923.htm
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 8:15 PM jody2.718
> >> <jody2.718 at protonmail.com <mailto:jody2.718 at protonmail.com>> wrote:
> >> >>>> I got to go with Rich on this one. All the influences that
> >> Joseph names are minuscule compared the daily heedless consumption
> >> and pooping into the environment of toxic, non-recyclable garbage
> >> by the average citizen. All the malevolent forces involved with
> >> the control of production and marketing of.same would dry up and
> >> blow away if ordinary people stopped consuming those overly
> >> convenient, and generally useless, products. They (we) won't and
> >> so we're probably doomed, sooner rather then later.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> jody
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Richard:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I don’t deny these elements exist. I just think the world sub
> >> rosa is a chaotic place. I don’t believe anyone is running
> >> anything. It’s this vast convoluted horrific at times nexus of
> >> ever changing alliances, some good some bad
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> On Jan 10, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at
> >> sover.net <http://sover.net>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> It is actually much easier for most to believe there is no
> >> deep state. That seems rather naive at this point. I would be
> >> happy to elaborate on what that means to me and to those who use
> >> this particular phrase. What most mean is the nexus of several
> >> forces: 1) Central bankers and the multi-national corporate
> >> lawyers who have elaborated a system of tax avoidance and who
> >> shape trade policy, often directly writing that policy( as opposed
> >> to theoretically sovereign representative governments) 2) All the
> >> secretive spy agencies British, US, Israeli, Germany, French… and
> >> their connections to fundamental international policies of the
> >> Nato Powers and the dollar as international reserve currency. 3)
> >> The neo -liberal corporate or state owned media that dominates the
> >> international media landscape 4) the power and influence of the
> >> fossil fuel industry in all its forms. 5) the arms and war industry
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> All of these forces combine to endorse and enforce the
> >> powers of capitalism and militarism wherever these combined
> >> interests wish to override any of the following democratic forces:
> >> independent democratic choices by voters, accountability of the
> >> rich for financial or environmental crimes, accountability of
> >> warcrimes and those who perpetrate them etc., accountability of
> >> corporate human crimes like Bhopal, asbestos exposure, carcinogen
> >> exposure, or global warming, accountability for dumping of
> >> plastics and toxics etc., accountability for interference in
> >> democratic processes( Chile, Venezuela,Tibet, Nicaragua, Iran,
> >> Brazil, Argentina, Honduras, Dominican Republic, Vietnam…. very
> >> long list)
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The deep state evolved at the nexus of government, military
> >> and money interests to protect the long term interests of powerful
> >> capitalists and imperial armies from the prospect of democratic
> >> movements that seek to put human and environmental issues above
> >> financial profit for the elite and the sick pride of imperial
> >> colonialist dominance.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> --
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> >>
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