Re: BEg2 chapter 5 - “Winnie List”

Thu Dec 9 21:37:44 UTC 2021

As he wrote in SLOW LEARNING, he will never write "tendril' without knowing
its meaning again,--- not an exact quote but a restatement for effect,
Jochen.....

On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 4:27 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> Yes. It even sees like somewhat of an endorsement of this fictional work
> as insider references usually are something the author liked or that
> everyone dislikes.
>
> > On Dec 9, 2021, at 4:08 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Neal,
> >
> > kudo and kudos....you're good.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > mark
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 4:06 PM Neal Fultz <nfultz at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> So I emailed the author of NetSlaves, this is what he wrote back:
> >>
> >>> The real list was the WWWAC list.
> >>> My co-author wrote about it: Ghost Sites of the Web: WWWAC.org is Dead
> >> (Does Anybody in NY Still Care?) (disobey.com)
> >>> Thank you for asking,
> >>
> >> And linking to -
> >>
> >>
> https://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/2008/08/wwwacorg-is-dead-does-anybody-in-ny.html
> >>
> >> So that means that Pynchon read NetSlaves, since that's the *only*
> >> thing that called it the "Winnie list".
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 11:31 PM Michael Bailey
> >> <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I mean, Jane’s story is a pretty good piece of short fiction, by my
> >> lights.
> >>>
> >>> A nice sidelight to BE, if not a partial source, as well.
> >>>
> >>> Ok, I’ll shut up about that now.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 10:36 PM Michael Bailey <
> >>> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> And yet I don’t mind.
> >>>>
> >>>> Slight bit different scenario would be they too were convinced by the
> >>>> disobey/ Netslaves tale & wiki’d it in good faith; or were leaving a
> >>>> breadcrumb to site of interest even if non-factual. For enthusiastic
> >>>> fictioneers, *especially* if non-factual.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 7:37 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> All of that explains the length and details of the BE mini-spin-off
> >>>>> fiction some one put on the Pynchonwiki.  Only a devoted story teller
> >> would
> >>>>> have gone to such lengths.  And they had you hook line& sinker.  🤡
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bravo to them
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 7:24 PM Michael Bailey <
> >>>>> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I think the books Netslaves & Netslaves 2, which spun off from the
> >>>>>> now-defunct site netslaves.com (referenced often on disobey.com)
> >> have
> >>>>>> some credibility.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I remember hearing good things about Netslaves at the time, but the
> >> name
> >>>>>> was offputting.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Authors have good vitas, one of them worked at Pathfinder.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bill Lessard has written for The Industry Standard and CNET. He has
> >>>>>> worked for Prodigy, Time Warner's Pathfinder, and numerous failed
> >> startups.
> >>>>>> With Steve Baldwin, he is the coauthor of NetSlaves (McGraw-Hill)
> and
> >>>>>> cofounder of NetSlaves.com. He lives in Yonkers, New York. Steve
> >> Baldwin
> >>>>>> has been an editor at PC Magazine, Computer Shopper, and Pathfinder
> >> and
> >>>>>> developed "Ghost Sites of the Web," an acclaimed e-zine devoted to
> >> failed
> >>>>>> Web sites. With Bill Lessard, he is the coauthor of NetSlaves
> >> (McGraw-Hill)
> >>>>>> and cofounder of NetSlaves.com. He lives in New York City.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Net-Slaves-True-Tales-Working/dp/0071352430
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Net-Slaves-2-0-Tales-Surviving/dp/1581152841
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 7:03 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Are you saying Jane existed? Or that anything about that story
> >> (beside
> >>>>>>> an error in an OJReport) is true?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:57 PM Michael Bailey <
> >>>>>>> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Jane’s story culminates in her being the one at (name changed in
> >>>>>>>> story) Time Warner Pathfinder to put the “OJ Guilty” misprint up -
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>
> https://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/pathfindermuseum/hello/1322882/1024/pathfinder6-2005.06.20-12.09.56.jpg
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> That brief error did happen.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Does that prove there was a Winnie? Of course not.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Is Jane’s story redolent with the flavor of dotcom contractors?
> >> Imho,
> >>>>>>>> yes.
> >>>>>>>> Is BE redolent in a similar way at various places? I think so.
> >>>>>>>> Does it improve the relishment of the story - yes.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Want a Zima?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:05 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Yes, I found the Brown reference.  He coined the phrase and
> >> concept,
> >>>>>>>>> but he never elaborated upon what it meant in any practical way.
> >> I t
> >>>>>>>>> sounded cool, but that’s all it ever was, a cool idea without any
> >> real
> >>>>>>>>> application.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> But you don’t think Jane’s story or anything about Winnie’s list
> >> on
> >>>>>>>>> Pynchonwiki was real, do you?  What you call early dotcom lore is
> >> probably
> >>>>>>>>> a fiction made up after ATD was published, right?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:56 PM Michael Bailey <
> >>>>>>>>> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I appreciated the pointer to interesting early dotcom lore - &
> >>>>>>>>>> possible source material for Pynchon: Jane’s story has the $30
> >> an hour, the
> >>>>>>>>>> Winnie list, &, seemed like, a couple other odds & ends that
> >> made it into
> >>>>>>>>>> BE - never would’ve found it without trying to prove you wrong,
> >> David.
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> It may not be as high flown as finding an IG Farben employee
> >> manual,
> >>>>>>>>>> but there’s a little frisson at Jane’s Story as a possible
> >> source, isn’t
> >>>>>>>>>> there?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Also, isn’t the Norman O Brown phrase you referenced the other
> >> day
> >>>>>>>>>> “polymorphous perversity?”
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hope all your recuperating is going good!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:41 PM David Morris <
> fqmorris at gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I never thought Winnie’s list was anything other than a joke by
> >>>>>>>>>>> Pynchon.  It’s not like I complained about it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The crazy thing is how far someone on the Pynchonwiki went to
> >>>>>>>>>>> “document” its reality.  But what really made that suspicious
> >> was the
> >>>>>>>>>>> length of Jane’s Story, and, of course it’s non-existence in
> >> any trace on
> >>>>>>>>>>> the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:33 PM Michael Bailey <
> >>>>>>>>>>> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> BE is a work of fiction so it’s okay to have fictitious
> >> references
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (imho)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It’d be cool if employers thought so too (-;
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>> --
> >>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >> --
> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>
>
>
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>