Re: BEg2 chapter 5 - “Winnie List”

Thu Dec 9 21:26:54 UTC 2021

Yes. It even sees like somewhat of an endorsement of this fictional work as insider references usually are something the author liked or that everyone dislikes. 

> On Dec 9, 2021, at 4:08 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Neal,
> 
> kudo and kudos....you're good.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> mark
> 
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 4:06 PM Neal Fultz <nfultz at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> So I emailed the author of NetSlaves, this is what he wrote back:
>> 
>>> The real list was the WWWAC list.
>>> My co-author wrote about it: Ghost Sites of the Web: WWWAC.org is Dead
>> (Does Anybody in NY Still Care?) (disobey.com)
>>> Thank you for asking,
>> 
>> And linking to -
>> 
>> https://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/2008/08/wwwacorg-is-dead-does-anybody-in-ny.html
>> 
>> So that means that Pynchon read NetSlaves, since that's the *only*
>> thing that called it the "Winnie list".
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 11:31 PM Michael Bailey
>> <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I mean, Jane’s story is a pretty good piece of short fiction, by my
>> lights.
>>> 
>>> A nice sidelight to BE, if not a partial source, as well.
>>> 
>>> Ok, I’ll shut up about that now.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 10:36 PM Michael Bailey <
>>> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> And yet I don’t mind.
>>>> 
>>>> Slight bit different scenario would be they too were convinced by the
>>>> disobey/ Netslaves tale & wiki’d it in good faith; or were leaving a
>>>> breadcrumb to site of interest even if non-factual. For enthusiastic
>>>> fictioneers, *especially* if non-factual.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 7:37 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> All of that explains the length and details of the BE mini-spin-off
>>>>> fiction some one put on the Pynchonwiki.  Only a devoted story teller
>> would
>>>>> have gone to such lengths.  And they had you hook line& sinker.  🤡
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bravo to them
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 7:24 PM Michael Bailey <
>>>>> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think the books Netslaves & Netslaves 2, which spun off from the
>>>>>> now-defunct site netslaves.com (referenced often on disobey.com)
>> have
>>>>>> some credibility.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I remember hearing good things about Netslaves at the time, but the
>> name
>>>>>> was offputting.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Authors have good vitas, one of them worked at Pathfinder.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Bill Lessard has written for The Industry Standard and CNET. He has
>>>>>> worked for Prodigy, Time Warner's Pathfinder, and numerous failed
>> startups.
>>>>>> With Steve Baldwin, he is the coauthor of NetSlaves (McGraw-Hill) and
>>>>>> cofounder of NetSlaves.com. He lives in Yonkers, New York. Steve
>> Baldwin
>>>>>> has been an editor at PC Magazine, Computer Shopper, and Pathfinder
>> and
>>>>>> developed "Ghost Sites of the Web," an acclaimed e-zine devoted to
>> failed
>>>>>> Web sites. With Bill Lessard, he is the coauthor of NetSlaves
>> (McGraw-Hill)
>>>>>> and cofounder of NetSlaves.com. He lives in New York City.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Net-Slaves-True-Tales-Working/dp/0071352430
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Net-Slaves-2-0-Tales-Surviving/dp/1581152841
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 7:03 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Are you saying Jane existed? Or that anything about that story
>> (beside
>>>>>>> an error in an OJReport) is true?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:57 PM Michael Bailey <
>>>>>>> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jane’s story culminates in her being the one at (name changed in
>>>>>>>> story) Time Warner Pathfinder to put the “OJ Guilty” misprint up -
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>> https://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/pathfindermuseum/hello/1322882/1024/pathfinder6-2005.06.20-12.09.56.jpg
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> That brief error did happen.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Does that prove there was a Winnie? Of course not.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Is Jane’s story redolent with the flavor of dotcom contractors?
>> Imho,
>>>>>>>> yes.
>>>>>>>> Is BE redolent in a similar way at various places? I think so.
>>>>>>>> Does it improve the relishment of the story - yes.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Want a Zima?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:05 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I found the Brown reference.  He coined the phrase and
>> concept,
>>>>>>>>> but he never elaborated upon what it meant in any practical way.
>> I t
>>>>>>>>> sounded cool, but that’s all it ever was, a cool idea without any
>> real
>>>>>>>>> application.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> But you don’t think Jane’s story or anything about Winnie’s list
>> on
>>>>>>>>> Pynchonwiki was real, do you?  What you call early dotcom lore is
>> probably
>>>>>>>>> a fiction made up after ATD was published, right?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:56 PM Michael Bailey <
>>>>>>>>> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I appreciated the pointer to interesting early dotcom lore - &
>>>>>>>>>> possible source material for Pynchon: Jane’s story has the $30
>> an hour, the
>>>>>>>>>> Winnie list, &, seemed like, a couple other odds & ends that
>> made it into
>>>>>>>>>> BE - never would’ve found it without trying to prove you wrong,
>> David.
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> It may not be as high flown as finding an IG Farben employee
>> manual,
>>>>>>>>>> but there’s a little frisson at Jane’s Story as a possible
>> source, isn’t
>>>>>>>>>> there?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Also, isn’t the Norman O Brown phrase you referenced the other
>> day
>>>>>>>>>> “polymorphous perversity?”
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hope all your recuperating is going good!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:41 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I never thought Winnie’s list was anything other than a joke by
>>>>>>>>>>> Pynchon.  It’s not like I complained about it.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The crazy thing is how far someone on the Pynchonwiki went to
>>>>>>>>>>> “document” its reality.  But what really made that suspicious
>> was the
>>>>>>>>>>> length of Jane’s Story, and, of course it’s non-existence in
>> any trace on
>>>>>>>>>>> the web.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:33 PM Michael Bailey <
>>>>>>>>>>> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> BE is a work of fiction so it’s okay to have fictitious
>> references
>>>>>>>>>>>> (imho)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> It’d be cool if employers thought so too (-;
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>> --
>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> --
>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> 
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l