NP: Bellingcat

Tue Dec 14 01:46:31 UTC 2021

OK.  I remembered incorrectly.  I now think it was Thomas that started
using “Russiagate” yesterday, harkening  back to past discussions here.
And I can only remember discussing Crimea with him back then.  Not Syria in
any detail.  Syria is too fucked up in all which ways to even begin a
discussion with this group.  I have no dog in that fight except the one
that died before Spring ever  came near to Syria.

I have no idea why the word ever came up again, but today it was being
thrown around alongside White Helmets, and I couldn’t begin to understand
what you were all yelling at each about!  Thus my last post.

But I think that conversation has died, so, sorry for saying you brought up
“Russiagate.”  I have no idea why Thomas did. But I don’t really care
anymore.

David Morris

On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 8:24 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> I never said anything about Russiagate, didn’t even say the word in any
> recent post. And it does not appear that  anybody called it a" hoax” in
> this thread either. This is called a straw-man argument. You put words in
> someone's mouth which seem conveniently weak to you and attack your made-up
> straw man, which you seem to have done here with gusto. Was Russiagate
> fundamentally a kind of fake conspiracy theory generated mostly by Hillary
> Clinton and her supporters? Interesting question. I notice that a couple of
> people who were crucial to propagating  this theory of Trump Russia
> collusion are under indictment and the facts do not bode well for them. We
> could go into detail if you like.
> The last time this topic came up in a serious way on the list was years
> ago. Several members of the list were waiting for Mueller to bring Trump
> down. I said, here on this very listserve, well before the publication of
> his findings that I wanted Trump gone as much as anyone but I was convinced
> that Mueller would not find the kind of evidence to do so because it wasn’t
> there to find.
>
> Your logic also has problems. You seem to want  anyone who did not accept
> the validity of Russiagate to be in the same group as Trump supporters.
> This is a wildly erroneous presumption as is easily proved.  It was also
> classic russiagate-believers tactic toward those many non-Republicans who
> doubted the Steele dossier, that Russia stole Hillary’s emails etc. Then
> you ask your presumed Trump supporter if they suspect Biden stole the
> election. First I have a long record of disgust with Trump so that was a
> real bad guess. But the whole question is logically ridiculous. It’s like
> asking this:   If you believe Martin King's arguments against the Vietnam
> war were sound, do you also believe peole who stood by King were working
> for Ho Chi Minh?  Some people make this kind of connection but there is no
> logical reason to link the 2 very different and fundamentally unconnected
> questions.  Exact same problem with your loaded question.
>
> As to stealing elections, the Republicans manage to gerrymander district
> after district to minimize the effect of Democratic Voters. Democratic
> party leaders conspire against reformers like Bernie or Tulsi or Elizabeth
> Warren. And the whole commercial media apparatus erects a wall of silence
> when a socialist reformer like Bernie gets a large base of support without
> corporate money.  So problems with the process? Yes. Trump actully won at
> the polls? No fucking way.
>
> > On Dec 13, 2021, at 5:57 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > If you think Russiagate was some kind of "hoax" (like Trump and everyone
> who supports him do), then do you also suspect Biden stole the 2020
> election?
> >
> > Russiagate was no hoax, by any reasonable metric. And as for kicking me
> while I'm down (if I was the intended target of said jab)... if that's the
> extent of your kicking power, go nuts!
> >
> > YOPJ
> >
> > PS - Just for one example:
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/russiagate-wasnt-a-hoax/615373/
> <
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/russiagate-wasnt-a-hoax/615373/
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 5:02 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:
> brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> > I have never heard that the white helmets were a paramilitary strike
> force even from those who exposed them as a complete fake created/oganized
> by an unscrupulous British intelligence agent who pocketed a fair amount of
> cash. But just look at the footage if you have any interest, bad movie
> making reeking of staged scenes. I think this is what the military call a
> psy-op.
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Dec 13, 2021, at 4:33 PM, Thomas Eckhardt via Pynchon-l <
> pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > > That about sums Bellingcat up, yes. NED ( "A lot of what we do today
> was
> > > done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA.") funding should merit a
> mention,
> > > too.
> > >
> > > Nobody ever claimed Assad was a "great guy" or that the White Helmets
> > > are a "paramilitary strikeforce". But you know that.
> > >
> > > Funny how in the course of a few years the Empire's Mighty Wurlitzer
> has
> > > managed to bring formerly functioning intellects down to the level of
> > > the proverbial school yard bully.
> > >
> > > While I am in a fighting mood - want to discuss Russiagate? Like we did
> > > in the good old days?
> > >
> > > Only kidding, of course. I am not the kind of person to kick someone
> > > when he is down.
> > >
> > > Am 13.12.2021 um 21:47 schrieb Mark Thibodeau:
> > >> B-But I thought Bellingcat was untrustworthy because they refuse to
> admit
> > >> what a great guy al-Bashear really is (liberator of Syria, man!), and
> fail
> > >> to acknowledge that the White Helmets are the photo-fakingest, single
> most
> > >> deadliest elite trained paramilitary strikeforce in that entire bloody
> > >> conflict... no?
> > >>
> > >> Jerky
> > >
> > > --
> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>