NP: Bellingcat

Tue Dec 14 02:50:05 UTC 2021

Yeah, I was replying to Thomas (who most assuredly DID bring up Russiagate,
). I don't know why Joe would assume that I was directing my response to
him (solipsism set aside for the moment) and not the 'included in thread'
post, with its clear and obvious reference to Russiagate just a single,
solitary message down from his own... but I guess that's one of the
drawbacks of this form of communication.

J

On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 8:46 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> OK.  I remembered incorrectly.  I now think it was Thomas that started
> using “Russiagate” yesterday, harkening  back to past discussions here.
> And I can only remember discussing Crimea with him back then.  Not Syria in
> any detail.  Syria is too fucked up in all which ways to even begin a
> discussion with this group.  I have no dog in that fight except the one
> that died before Spring ever  came near to Syria.
>
> I have no idea why the word ever came up again, but today it was being
> thrown around alongside White Helmets, and I couldn’t begin to understand
> what you were all yelling at each about!  Thus my last post.
>
> But I think that conversation has died, so, sorry for saying you brought
> up “Russiagate.”  I have no idea why Thomas did. But I don’t really care
> anymore.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 8:24 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>
>> I never said anything about Russiagate, didn’t even say the word in any
>> recent post. And it does not appear that  anybody called it a" hoax” in
>> this thread either. This is called a straw-man argument. You put words in
>> someone's mouth which seem conveniently weak to you and attack your made-up
>> straw man, which you seem to have done here with gusto. Was Russiagate
>> fundamentally a kind of fake conspiracy theory generated mostly by Hillary
>> Clinton and her supporters? Interesting question. I notice that a couple of
>> people who were crucial to propagating  this theory of Trump Russia
>> collusion are under indictment and the facts do not bode well for them. We
>> could go into detail if you like.
>> The last time this topic came up in a serious way on the list was years
>> ago. Several members of the list were waiting for Mueller to bring Trump
>> down. I said, here on this very listserve, well before the publication of
>> his findings that I wanted Trump gone as much as anyone but I was convinced
>> that Mueller would not find the kind of evidence to do so because it wasn’t
>> there to find.
>>
>> Your logic also has problems. You seem to want  anyone who did not accept
>> the validity of Russiagate to be in the same group as Trump supporters.
>> This is a wildly erroneous presumption as is easily proved.  It was also
>> classic russiagate-believers tactic toward those many non-Republicans who
>> doubted the Steele dossier, that Russia stole Hillary’s emails etc. Then
>> you ask your presumed Trump supporter if they suspect Biden stole the
>> election. First I have a long record of disgust with Trump so that was a
>> real bad guess. But the whole question is logically ridiculous. It’s like
>> asking this:   If you believe Martin King's arguments against the Vietnam
>> war were sound, do you also believe peole who stood by King were working
>> for Ho Chi Minh?  Some people make this kind of connection but there is no
>> logical reason to link the 2 very different and fundamentally unconnected
>> questions.  Exact same problem with your loaded question.
>>
>> As to stealing elections, the Republicans manage to gerrymander district
>> after district to minimize the effect of Democratic Voters. Democratic
>> party leaders conspire against reformers like Bernie or Tulsi or Elizabeth
>> Warren. And the whole commercial media apparatus erects a wall of silence
>> when a socialist reformer like Bernie gets a large base of support without
>> corporate money.  So problems with the process? Yes. Trump actully won at
>> the polls? No fucking way.
>>
>> > On Dec 13, 2021, at 5:57 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > If you think Russiagate was some kind of "hoax" (like Trump and
>> everyone who supports him do), then do you also suspect Biden stole the
>> 2020 election?
>> >
>> > Russiagate was no hoax, by any reasonable metric. And as for kicking me
>> while I'm down (if I was the intended target of said jab)... if that's the
>> extent of your kicking power, go nuts!
>> >
>> > YOPJ
>> >
>> > PS - Just for one example:
>> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/russiagate-wasnt-a-hoax/615373/
>> <
>> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/russiagate-wasnt-a-hoax/615373/
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 5:02 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:
>> brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
>> > I have never heard that the white helmets were a paramilitary strike
>> force even from those who exposed them as a complete fake created/oganized
>> by an unscrupulous British intelligence agent who pocketed a fair amount of
>> cash. But just look at the footage if you have any interest, bad movie
>> making reeking of staged scenes. I think this is what the military call a
>> psy-op.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Dec 13, 2021, at 4:33 PM, Thomas Eckhardt via Pynchon-l <
>> pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > That about sums Bellingcat up, yes. NED ( "A lot of what we do today
>> was
>> > > done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA.") funding should merit a
>> mention,
>> > > too.
>> > >
>> > > Nobody ever claimed Assad was a "great guy" or that the White Helmets
>> > > are a "paramilitary strikeforce". But you know that.
>> > >
>> > > Funny how in the course of a few years the Empire's Mighty Wurlitzer
>> has
>> > > managed to bring formerly functioning intellects down to the level of
>> > > the proverbial school yard bully.
>> > >
>> > > While I am in a fighting mood - want to discuss Russiagate? Like we
>> did
>> > > in the good old days?
>> > >
>> > > Only kidding, of course. I am not the kind of person to kick someone
>> > > when he is down.
>> > >
>> > > Am 13.12.2021 um 21:47 schrieb Mark Thibodeau:
>> > >> B-But I thought Bellingcat was untrustworthy because they refuse to
>> admit
>> > >> what a great guy al-Bashear really is (liberator of Syria, man!),
>> and fail
>> > >> to acknowledge that the White Helmets are the photo-fakingest,
>> single most
>> > >> deadliest elite trained paramilitary strikeforce in that entire
>> bloody
>> > >> conflict... no?
>> > >>
>> > >> Jerky
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>
>> --
>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>
>