NP: Bellingcat

Tue Dec 14 03:15:40 UTC 2021

The reason  I responded is that the email was addressed to me and the list as opposed to T Eckhardt and the list, or just the list. Look at your sent emails/ You addressed it to me so if it was unintentional, it was your error and not mine . So own up.. The problems with your statement remain.  Thomas E did not use the word hoax. So you addressed a straw man just as you did with the bellingcat remarks. What does approval for Assad have to do with the reliability of Bellingcat? 
 Finally,The logic  of your loaded question is still utterly flawed as I addressed.  

> On Dec 13, 2021, at 9:50 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I was replying to Thomas (who most assuredly DID bring up Russiagate, ). I don't know why Joe would assume that I was directing my response to him (solipsism set aside for the moment) and not the 'included in thread' post, with its clear and obvious reference to Russiagate just a single, solitary message down from his own... but I guess that's one of the drawbacks of this form of communication.
> 
> J
> 
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 8:46 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com <mailto:fqmorris at gmail.com>> wrote:
> OK.  I remembered incorrectly.  I now think it was Thomas that started using “Russiagate” yesterday, harkening  back to past discussions here.  And I can only remember discussing Crimea with him back then.  Not Syria in any detail.  Syria is too fucked up in all which ways to even begin a discussion with this group.  I have no dog in that fight except the one that died before Spring ever  came near to Syria.
> 
> I have no idea why the word ever came up again, but today it was being thrown around alongside White Helmets, and I couldn’t begin to understand what you were all yelling at each about!  Thus my last post.
> 
> But I think that conversation has died, so, sorry for saying you brought up “Russiagate.”  I have no idea why Thomas did. But I don’t really care anymore.
> 
> David Morris 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 8:24 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> I never said anything about Russiagate, didn’t even say the word in any recent post. And it does not appear that  anybody called it a" hoax” in this thread either. This is called a straw-man argument. You put words in  someone's mouth which seem conveniently weak to you and attack your made-up straw man, which you seem to have done here with gusto. Was Russiagate fundamentally a kind of fake conspiracy theory generated mostly by Hillary Clinton and her supporters? Interesting question. I notice that a couple of people who were crucial to propagating  this theory of Trump Russia collusion are under indictment and the facts do not bode well for them. We could go into detail if you like. 
> The last time this topic came up in a serious way on the list was years ago. Several members of the list were waiting for Mueller to bring Trump down. I said, here on this very listserve, well before the publication of his findings that I wanted Trump gone as much as anyone but I was convinced that Mueller would not find the kind of evidence to do so because it wasn’t there to find. 
> 
> Your logic also has problems. You seem to want  anyone who did not accept the validity of Russiagate to be in the same group as Trump supporters. This is a wildly erroneous presumption as is easily proved.  It was also classic russiagate-believers tactic toward those many non-Republicans who doubted the Steele dossier, that Russia stole Hillary’s emails etc. Then you ask your presumed Trump supporter if they suspect Biden stole the election. First I have a long record of disgust with Trump so that was a real bad guess. But the whole question is logically ridiculous. It’s like asking this:   If you believe Martin King's arguments against the Vietnam war were sound, do you also believe peole who stood by King were working for Ho Chi Minh?  Some people make this kind of connection but there is no logical reason to link the 2 very different and fundamentally unconnected questions.  Exact same problem with your loaded question. 
> 
> As to stealing elections, the Republicans manage to gerrymander district after district to minimize the effect of Democratic Voters. Democratic party leaders conspire against reformers like Bernie or Tulsi or Elizabeth Warren. And the whole commercial media apparatus erects a wall of silence when a socialist reformer like Bernie gets a large base of support without corporate money.  So problems with the process? Yes. Trump actully won at the polls? No fucking way.  
> 
> > On Dec 13, 2021, at 5:57 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com <mailto:jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > If you think Russiagate was some kind of "hoax" (like Trump and everyone who supports him do), then do you also suspect Biden stole the 2020 election?
> > 
> > Russiagate was no hoax, by any reasonable metric. And as for kicking me while I'm down (if I was the intended target of said jab)... if that's the extent of your kicking power, go nuts!
> > 
> > YOPJ
> > 
> > PS - Just for one example: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/russiagate-wasnt-a-hoax/615373/ <https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/russiagate-wasnt-a-hoax/615373/> <https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/russiagate-wasnt-a-hoax/615373/ <https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/russiagate-wasnt-a-hoax/615373/>>
> > On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 5:02 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net> <mailto:brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>>> wrote:
> > I have never heard that the white helmets were a paramilitary strike force even from those who exposed them as a complete fake created/oganized by an unscrupulous British intelligence agent who pocketed a fair amount of cash. But just look at the footage if you have any interest, bad movie making reeking of staged scenes. I think this is what the military call a psy-op. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > On Dec 13, 2021, at 4:33 PM, Thomas Eckhardt via Pynchon-l <pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org> <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>>> wrote:
> > > 
> > > That about sums Bellingcat up, yes. NED ( "A lot of what we do today was
> > > done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA.") funding should merit a mention,
> > > too.
> > > 
> > > Nobody ever claimed Assad was a "great guy" or that the White Helmets
> > > are a "paramilitary strikeforce". But you know that.
> > > 
> > > Funny how in the course of a few years the Empire's Mighty Wurlitzer has
> > > managed to bring formerly functioning intellects down to the level of
> > > the proverbial school yard bully.
> > > 
> > > While I am in a fighting mood - want to discuss Russiagate? Like we did
> > > in the good old days?
> > > 
> > > Only kidding, of course. I am not the kind of person to kick someone
> > > when he is down.
> > > 
> > > Am 13.12.2021 um 21:47 schrieb Mark Thibodeau:
> > >> B-But I thought Bellingcat was untrustworthy because they refuse to admit
> > >> what a great guy al-Bashear really is (liberator of Syria, man!), and fail
> > >> to acknowledge that the White Helmets are the photo-fakingest, single most
> > >> deadliest elite trained paramilitary strikeforce in that entire bloody
> > >> conflict... no?
> > >> 
> > >> Jerky
> > > 
> > > --
> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l> <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>>
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l> <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>>
> 
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>