BEg2 chapter 10 Fascist Aesthetics, unmaking thereof...

Tue Dec 21 00:17:43 UTC 2021

Our thinking on this topic is remarkably similar. If you look at these women through a psychological lens I find a difference that breaks down the credibility of Maxine’s connection to Windust. With Lake or Frenesi their connection to agents of oligarchy/state power/conquest is partly a kind of rebound from the injuries and isolation that often comes with rebellion. They want security and love/passion and perhaps the sexiness of rebelling from rebellion but with afuture more guaranteed by the winners.  But when it leads them into a sordid emptiness, they can no longer seem to assert their freedom to walk away.They are pathetically stuck, tragic and sad. They do change though, or at least  their inner life is ready for change and ultimately  in both cases they are liberated by the death of their spouses at the end of the novel. 
  What you are saying about Maxine rings quite true and I think Pynchon tries to explain her in a different way than Frenesi or Lake but in so doing seems to be trying to have it both ways as regards her psychological profile. His justification is that she is trying to redeem Windust from the darkest games  of empire, driven by a kind of savior complex. The problem is P also wants her to play the role of the tough cookie who has a smartass answer for any bullshit and also has a deep tenderness and longing for her ex husband who is a Sterling Hayden look alike, despite her current status as unmarried and sexually open. Basically the women I know who are like Maxine are not going to be drawn into Windust’s degrading of how to treat another human , let alone his idea of what is seductive, and they are generally observant enough to know how the savior complex works out for women. So the core for me  is I just didn’t buy it as credible behavior for this lively character.

On the other hand as an allegorical stand-in for America’s love affair with authoritarian bullies (the inward as well as outward divide you mention) it allows Pynchon to develop the repercussions of that theme of the  dark downside of imperial service in very potent ways: the betrayal of Windust by some branch of his own service, the connection to ancient deadly ritual contests of power  both in actual spookcraft  and  the Mayan myths, the self deception of soldiers who should know better, the endless lies as one is headed toward the closing act of the play, stinking dead on a tenement floor, eaten by flies  and the dogs of war, because you somehow slipped out of favor.
  I also agree that there is some degree of sexism in P’s books, It seems obvious that women readers are less drawn to Pynchon and I think that has to do with women being cast in too limiting a way as objects of male interest. There are virtually no plain, or chubby women at least as major characters though there are a number of  such major male characters. The impression is that women who aren’t pretty can’t be, intellectually, physically, socially or otherwise important or even sexy, fun, witty. 

Sometimes I think he is blatantly mocking  juvenile male fantasy porn as in Inherent Vice and the neckties with sexual conquests, not so different from Doc’s sex games, or the Beach Boys version of male-female dynamics or even Charlie Manson’s.  At any rate  I do not think he is unconscious of these issues, and Maxine may represent an attempt to create an empowered and dynamic NYC female protagonist.   I personally found Yashmeen to be credible, intriguing and powerfully resistant to domination. Same for Dally, Erlys, Stray, the woman archeological anthropologist and several other female characters in ATD who aren’t  besotted with men in uniforms. 

I see strong validity in Mark Kohut’s  take also. American culture, especially popular culture, bends this way toward sexist roles and gets under everybody’s skin along with some other questionable baggage.  

> On Dec 20, 2021, at 12:32 PM, Allen Ruch <quail at shipwrecklibrary.com> wrote:
> 
> I think this is an excellent question, Joseph! It's one I ask myself about Pynchon's work all the time. 
> 
> On one level, I think the attraction-to-fascists trope speaks to Pynchon's belief that we are all complicit in some degree, the attractive seductive allure of evil, the corruption of "Us" becoming "Them." I think this was most effectively explored through Brock Vond and Frenesi/Prairie in "Vineland" and through Lake Traverse in "Against the Day." However, with Maxine...
> 
> Full disclosure: while Pynchon is one of my favorite writers, I'm one of those who find his writing to be, on occasion, sexist. And I'm not talking about horny, perverted, or anything like that—I don't care about that, I'm not confusing a male character's sex drive with sexism—but I mean something deeper, like I discussed before; certain female characters seem written from a detectable male perspective. And Maxine here is a great example. 
> 
> There's a few things that bother me about Maxine's portrayal, and one of them is her relationship with Windust. I know it's supposed to be unsettling, and yes, there's something definitely intriguing about it. But there's a level of *degradation* she's willing to accept that never quite rings true to me. I'm 100% ok with the Eric foot-sex; I actually buy that—Maxine is pretty spontaneous and earthy and sexual, I can see how that random encounter is erotic, and Eric is a nice guy. (Although I think Maxine taking the stage as s stripper is suspect.) But the scene later with Windust, you know... I just don't 100% buy it. Like Joseph says, it's a common trope in Pynchon, and sometimes I buy it—in "Vineland," on "Against the Day"—but not here with Maxine in "Bleeding Edge." While a character like Lake Traverse may have sought degradation, I have trouble reading that impulse in Maxine. 
> 
> And look, to anticipate some responses: I think Pynchon is a genius, and I'm open to alternate interpretations. I am not saying he doesn’t know what he's doing, and I see the allegorical point. I'm just saying it doesn't work for me. And I often wonder, if I were a woman, would I feel differently about some of these scenes? I said something like that a few months back—I'd love to hear more from female readers about Maxine's strengths and flaws as a female protagonist. 
> 
> And finally, I'm more or less ok with Pynchon's sexism. It bothers me sometimes, but it's hardly a deal-breaker. I mean, my favorite writers are Melville and Lovecraft, neither of whom seem aware that women even exist, so....
> 
> —Quail
> 
> 
> On 12/19/21, 6:46 PM, "Pynchon-l on behalf of Joseph Tracy" <pynchon-l-bounces at waste.org on behalf of brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> 
>        So what are the erotic dreams about? And what is the Pynchon-trope of women attracted to fascists about?   Is this getting old? Does the allegorical value justify it?
> 
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l