this just occurred to me re unions & Webb

[Mark Kohut]

Thanks, David.....I've forgotten or shuffled around mentally much of this,
much of AtD, so I should shut my mouth until I know it granularly,
feelingly again.
Thanks for all you have written here.....



On Sat, Dec 25, 2021 at 12:59 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> God, y’all do a lot of dancing amidst the simple, but gut-wretchedly sad
> story of Webb’s slow and as coldly-cruel and painfully inflicted as
> possible torture/murder, as it is told in the book (p.192-198).
>
> Webb had done nothing in his recent past to have alienated the Union.
> Those days were well behind him.  He’d entered a more melancholy phase
> without the company of his family anymore.  As Lake, speaking to Mayva,
> said, *“We were never that important to him, Mamma.  He had his almighty
> damn Union, that’s what he loved, if he loved anything.”*  And the
> narrator then *immediately* says (in type just like this), “IF IT WAS
> LOVE, it was less than two-way.”
>
> We’re then told that Webb, after Mayva and Lake left him, “sought the
> embrace of Local 63, which, alarmed at the vehemence of his need, decided
> there ought to be some distance between him and the Union, and suggested he
> shift over into the Uncompahgre for a while, to the Torpedo workings.”  It
> was there that he was knocked unconscious, badly beaten and prolongedly
> tortured for the pure motive of inflicting pain long beyond his spirit’s
> ability to bear it.
>
> So, although his “arrest” was by a Company inspector, accusing him of
> stealing a gold nugget planted on him, it was by no means an “event.”  His
> abduction and torture were done in secret, and his body was dumped in the
> neighboring state of Utah in “Jeshimon, [one of the places] known and
> feared as the places you ended up on top of when nobody wanted you found.”
>
> So did “nobody” want Webb’s body found?  Well, it was found, and a funeral
> was had, and “nobody” came.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Sat, Dec 25, 2021 at 11:22 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think the only thing here is it is unlikely most did not know and word
>> would spread.....workers, like neighbors, know most of what one of
>> theirown is doing--esp regarding something like that......and I do think
>> the overwhelming amount of real historical evidence, such as all I
>> presented,  is that worker-comrades would show solidarity by attending the
>> funeral of one they felt in solidarity with..... And a meaning that you
>> don't say you see is the one I wrote as a possibility: Pynchon sides with
>> all you wrote about non-violent union action.....Walter Reuther's way, a
>> known hero of TRP's, not any violent criminal kind.........Webb presented
>> here is why Pynchon finds the Traverses as morally lacking. imho.
>
>
>> On Sat, Dec 25, 2021 at 10:57 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>
>> > That seems more likely and would amplify the fear for thise who might
>> want
>> > to attend, because they would be both in disfavor from the union and
>> marked
>> > by the Pinkertons. The only thing is there is no indication that the
>> union
>> > leaders knew Webb was a dynamiter. Veikko is his only known helper. I
>> > personally don’t think there is any big point here apart from maybe the
>> > loneliness of Webb’s more destructive resistance. I don’t even know
>> what it
>> > would be. Mostly it seems to lead to a solo renegade inclination in
>> Reef.
>> > To me the saddest and most foolish behavior of Webb T was his failure
>> as a
>> > father toward Kit and Lake.
>> >    All in all it is hard to separate the range of tactics of the unions
>> as
>> > far as ultimate effectiveness at achieving goals. The French  of recent
>> > history have used property destruction as a pretty effective tool.
>> > Historically, the fundamental and most destructive personal violence has
>> > predominately been on the part of the owners, private cops, and State.
>> When
>> > people are subjected to this kind of violence there are different
>> reactions
>> > and all in all most Americans are not pacifists. It is surprising that
>> the
>> > kind of hardcore violent class warfare feared by czars, the rich and
>> > conservatives is really very rare, while excessive state violence is not
>> > rare at all.
>> >  I see myself as a Pacifist but know that life can challenge one in
>> > extreme ways. I am in a Friend’s meeting. But I cannot judge those who
>> feel
>> > everyone has a right of self defense and how they practically interpret
>> > that right.
>> >
>> > > On Dec 25, 2021, at 9:11 AM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > could be as well a control issue. Webb going off and causing mayhem
>> > against
>> > > union leadership wishes. I dont remember if in the novel Webb is
>> warned
>> > or
>> > > advised by the union to cool it.
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Dec 25, 2021 at 8:12 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> The other (major) reason no union member attended Webb's funeral,
>> > perhaps,
>> > >> in Pynchon's vision in AtD might be because they---union members with
>> > real
>> > >> solidarity---
>> > >> did not see Webb that way.
>> > >>
>> > >> In fact, I like this better. Webb had turned therefore........
>> > >> --
>> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >>
>> > > --
>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> >
>> --
>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>
>