Umberto Eco - Ur Fascism

[Thomas Eckhardt]

> This reads like Ukrainian people and government are controlled by nazis
> - with the west's support - or am I misinterpreting you?

You are misinterpreting me. I don't believe the Ukrainian people and
government are "controlled by Nazis".

> As I have explained in more detail (what you chose to ignore) there is
> no reason to believe that nazis play any significant role in Ukrainian
> society or politics.

I think you underestimate their influence. And no, I did not ignore your
long post on Bandera etc. which I mostly agree with. For me, as well as
for some of his his followers, however, Bandera represents the Ukrainian
Nazi collaborators who took part in the Holocaust (whether Bandera
himself took part is beside the point). These people were used after the
war by the US and the UK against the Soviet Union (look up "Operation
Aerodynamic", the documents are publicly available; interestingly, the
CIA did not want to collaborate with Bandera at first, MI6 had no such
qualms). However, it is also true that many of Bandera's followers in
Ukraine see him merely as a nationalist leader.

> However your "use Neo-Nazis" implies just that, and
> it is based nothing but your claim so far.

Search the archives. Random points off the top of my head: The US
Army trained and armed the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion. It is forbidden by
law to condemn Nazi collaborators like Stepan Bandera or Roman
Shukhevych, who have had streets and memorials named for them across
Ukraine.

Much hinges on the question of who committed the
massacre on February 20, 2014. I recommmend Ivan Katchanovski on
this subject. This is a good starting point:

https://jordanrussiacenter.org/news/the-maidan-massacre-in-ukraine-revelations-from-trials-and-investigation/#.YbPsYy-B1hF

> You have based your argument (if any) on a few hundred nationalists on a
> (legal) march in Kyiv and a UN resolution the US and Germany did not
> support, plus now a little name dropping (Parubiy and Biletsky). Your
> point regarding WW2 casualties was doubly wrong (wrong figures, wrong to
> associate them with Russia rather than all the involved soviet
> republics). Last not least you were the one feeling it necessary to
> trigger this discussion by making a completely off-topic remark how much
> more "interesting" you found Ukrainian neo nazis compared to Polish.
>
> Frankly this looks like a "idée fixe" to me. Hence, when it comes to
> salivating....

Idefix? The neo-Nazi and "Commander of the Maidan" Andriy Parubiy is not
an important figure?

The numbers were from Wiki and referred to the Soviet
Union. My mistake. My point should have been clear regardless.

But yes, I continue to be suprised about how people can oppose unsavoury
right-wing populists like Trump or the Polish twins but ignore the
political support their own side provides not merely for right-wing
populists but for full-blown Nazis. I continue to be surprised at the
fact that I get verbally abused whenever I mention US support for
neo-Nazis in Ukraine, especially when US support for Nazis ("Operation
Paperclip") is one of the topics of Thomas Pynchon's most famous book.

Why on earth would anyone oppose a condemnation of the glorification of
Nazism? Especially if, as you claim, Banderism is of no importance in
today's Ukraine? And indeed, Biletsky's Nazi party thankfully did not do
well at the polls.