more Ukraine research and thoughts.

[David Morris]

It seems that Joe’s entire “understanding” of the history of how Ukraine
found itself in a completely helpless position against the current
overwhelming Russian military force is *completely upside down because it’s
based entirely on Russian propaganda.  THE MYTHS:*

myth 1) Ukraine aggression back in 2015 caused the failure of Minsk II.

myth 2) “Russian proxies” in Ukraine are a myth (they are “ethnically
Russian Ukrainians”).

myth 3)  “Ukraine sending military equipment of all kinds to Ukraine” is a
new aggression *forcing Russia to send troops to defend the “ethnically
Russian Ukrainian.”*

myth 4)  “Ukraine is pushing the world (by way of myth 3)  to including
Ukraine in NATO” (*thus posing a threat to Russia - now forcing Russia to
defend itself*).

NOBODY believes the above Russian propaganda myths except Joe.  ONLY JOE
would risk being laughed out of the room by so blatantly accepting every
single Russian talking point as a place to begin a discussion (about shit
he’s completely ignorant - a Wiki link to Minsk?  Really?).  But I think I
smell a Hubshite nearby…

Thanks, Dr Dietze.



On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 4:26 PM Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:

> Without hope to come to some consensus here, let me correct some
> misconceptions.
>
> On 24. January 2022 at 20:46:48, Joseph Tracy (brook7 at sover.net) wrote:
>
> 1)
> The Minsk agreement was a ceasefire agreement between the Donetsk and
> Luhansk also known as the Donbass one hand and the western side of Ukraine
> are the other.
>
> Wrong. Donetsk and Luhansk are the largest city in a region called
> ”Donbass”. Currently a little than half of it is under occupation.
>
> Side note: Russia, the power responsible for that occupation insisted on
> not being involved in that conflict and refused to be part of that
> agreement.
>
>
> Russia has always supported the fulfillment of this agreement in the
> provision against foreign troops (NATO) and has never pushed for breaking
> Ukraine in 2.
>
> No, this is utterly wrong. Minsk II included a ceasefire and freezing the
> line separating both sides (and hence their respective held territories).
> The Russian proxies had failed to take the strategically important town
> Debaltsevo before the agreement took effect. On Ferbruary 12, 2015 they
> launched a vast offensive combining volunteer units, regular Russian army
> units, using (banned) heavy artillery including the TOS-1 heavy
> flamethrower system, took Debaltsevo and have kept it to this day.
>
> After this blatant violation Minsk II was dead from day 1. Claiming that
> Ukraine were to fulfil their part now - as Moscow does - is utter cynicism.
>
>
> As Ukraine pushes to break the agreement by including Ukraine in NATO and
> sending military equipment of all kinds to Ukraine, Russia has responded by
> sending more military reinforcements to the border and asking for a written
> agreement on nonaggression from the US .
>
> This is nonsense again. The Ukrainian government knows very well that
> whatever they do they will always lose to Russia’s practically limitless
> military resources. The soldiers have been sitting in their trenches simply
> in order to hold their positions, trying not to get killed by snipers.
> Russia’s story of Ukraine planning an offensive to retake the occupied
> territories (by the way something Russia herself would not hesitate a
> minute to do in a similar situation) is far-fetched and far from the truth.
>
>
> Russia continues to call for the Minsk agreement to be the basis for
> peaceful resolution and has made no effort to divide Ukraine other than
> ensuring the basic rights of ethnically Russian Ukrainians.
>
> Interesting. So you think there is a distinction between ethnically Russian
> Ukrainians and other Ukrainians? If you can tell such a difference, you’re
> a genius. Ukrainians can’t. And they don’t care.
>
> Interestingly in those parts of the Donbass not under Russia’s control
> people are happy not to to be on the other side of the front, and they
> enjoy the same rights as their compatriots elsewhere in the country do.
>
> What I find rather intriguing is you stating this as a “fact” rather than
> citing something you’ve read somewhere. So when have you been to Ukraine
> recently? Where? You must be very well-informed.
>
>
> I am skipping the rest. An opinion is nice to have, but as I have learned
> in life getting the facts right should come first. There’s been so many
> blatant errors in your introductory part that you should really not ask
> anyone to read your opinion at this point.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Martin
>
>
> --
> Dr. Martin Dietze
> [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/]
> 1. Vorsitzender
> Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
> [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/]
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>