more Ukraine research and thoughts.

[Martin Dietze]

So you find Putin’s blurbs on a foreign country noteworthy. No more
questions.

On 27. January 2022 at 20:54:43, Joseph Tracy (brook7 at sover.net) wrote:

Even wikipedia doesn’t say that the war ovr the Donbass was intiated or
fought by Russia alone.I would like a credible source on Russian drafting
Ukrainians since asearch with that language turned up nothing. Russia has
not called for a separate state. They want no Nato. Nato is the issue. The
US is doing all it can to provoke a war or get Russia to back down on Nato.
Let’s be real. The US government doesn’t care about Ukraine or human
rights, they care about about global dominance and money. And most people
here care about money and whatever the networks are telling people to be
afraid of to distract them from the plunder of jet fueled capitalism. That
is our real policy. In the long run the US empire is dead weight with bad
money that many are pulling away from, and our military bullying is already
failing those we claim to save. The US is no advocate of international law,
and and are as willing to kill as ever, witness Yemen and Africa, unbridled
support for apartheid Israel and recent wars in Syria, Libya, Iraq. Is
Russia better, or China or Europe? Perhaps less prone to war and coups but
all are addicted to the same dream of endless growth through extraction.
IMO the whole idea that China and Russia are completely other and the sole
centers of totalitarian power structures is absurd. Technocracy and
surveillance are everywhere but maybe Bhutan or Iceland.

Below, some actual words of Putin on the topic of Ukraine .


VLADIMIR PUTIN – THE DONBASS FUTURE MUST BE DETERMINED BY THOSE WHO LIVE
THERE
24/12/2021
Asked by several journalists at his big annual press conference <
http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67438> about Russia-Ukraine
relations and rumours of a coming war over military escalation, Russian
President Vladimir Putin explained why Moscow demands security guarantees
from the United States to avoid war, and said that the Donbass future must
be determined by its inhabitants.

Responding to a journalist’s question about the red lines Russia recently
drew, and the subsequent negotiations to avoid the outbreak of a full-scale
war due to the recent escalation, Vladimir Putin <
https://www.donbass-insider.com/tag/putin/> pointed out that the escalation
actually started in 2014 with the Maidan coup, and that before that, even
though Ukraine already had a pro-Western orientation, this had not bothered
Russia.

“The aggravation started in 2014. Until then, despite the fact that the
Soviet Union ceased to exist, part of the historical Russian territories
with the population of historical Russia ended up outside the Russian
Federation, mainly in Ukraine, we accepted this, we agreed with this,
moreover, we contributed to the formation of new states and we worked and
were ready to work, and we work with all governments, regardless of their
foreign policy orientation. You only have to remember our relations with
President Yushchenko and Prime Minister Tymoshenko, who, like the current
leaders of Ukraine, spoke of their absolute pro-Western orientation. We
used to work with them,” the Russian President replied.

Vladimir Putin then recalled the events that took place in Ukraine in 2014,
which were the trigger for the reintegration of Crimea and the outbreak of
war in the Donbass.

“What happened in 2014? A bloody coup, people were killed and burned. Now I
am not saying who is right and who is wrong. It is clear that Ukrainian
citizens were legitimately indignant and unhappy with what was happening in
their country. So the incumbent President Yanukovych – he accepted
everything. Three foreign ministers – Poland, Germany and France – gave
guarantees of peaceful developments and the peace process. I spoke to the
President of the United States at the time, on his initiative. He asked me
to support this process as well. Everyone agreed. A day later, two days
later, a coup d’état. What was the reason? No answer. Why not? President
Yanukovych had already accepted everything; he was ready to leave power the
next day. The elections, the victory of the opposition was imminent,
everybody understood that. So why did they do it? Crimea came after that.
And how could we refuse Sevastopol and Crimea, and the people living there,
and take them under our protection and our wing? We couldn’t. We were
simply put in a situation where we could not do otherwise,” he added.

The Russian President then spoke about the situation of the Donbass war,
and how this historically Russian region was forcibly integrated into
Ukraine by the USSR.

“Or should we have looked at what is happening in the south-east, in the
Donbass, which originally, even when the Soviet Union was organized in
1922-24, could not consider itself anything other than part of Russia? But
it was pushed there by Lenin and his comrades-in-arms by force. […] That’s
what they did. They created a country that did not exist before. […] They
stuck historical [Russian] territories with a people who was not asked how
and where it wanted to live. […] That’s how the crisis was born, which is
still going on today,” he said.

“Twice the Ukrainian authorities tried to solve the Donbass problem by
force. Although they were persuaded not to do so. I personally persuaded
Poroshenko: no military operations! “Yes, yes”, and he started. The result?
Encirclement, losses. The Minsk agreements. Are they good or not? I think
this is the only option,” the Russian President added.

Vladimir Putin then detailed how Kiev is constantly violating the Minsk
agreements, passing laws that totally contradict them.

“So what’s the problem? They don’t want to implement them. They passed a
law on indigenous peoples, declaring that the Russians living on this
territory, on their own territory, were a non-indigenous people. Just like
the Poles, Hungarians and Romanians, for that matter. […] And then about
the language. Russians and the Russian-speaking population are simply are
ousted from their historical territory – that’s what’s happening. […] The
government has submitted a law on the transition period to parliament.
Where are the Minsk agreements? Instead of an amnesty, there is a ban on
amnesty, almost criminal prosecution for this amnesty. Instead of
elections, military-administrative governance is being introduced, and
instead of amnesty, repression of the population,” he recalled.

The Russian President went on to explain why what is happening in Donbass
and Ukraine is important for the very security of the Russian Federation.

“Now they tell us: war, war, war. You get the impression that they may be
preparing a third military operation. And we are warned in advance: “Do not
interfere, do not protect these people. If you interfere, defend them, new
sanctions will follow”. And they are preparing for that, maybe. The first
option is to react and do something in a thoughtful way. The second option
is the creation (I already said this in my article <
https://www.donbass-insider.com/fr/2021/07/14/vladimir-poutine-de-lunite-historique-des-russes-et-des-ukrainiens/>)
on this territory of an “anti-Russia” with the constant sending of modern
weapons, with the brainwashing of the population. Can you imagine how, in
the historical perspective, Russia should live, continue to live? […] We
have to think about the prospects of our security, not even for today or
next week, but for the near future. How is Russia supposed to live with
that? All the time, with an eye on what is going to happen there and when
they are going to strike? This is a serious question. I was just talking
about our plans for infrastructure development, social policy, health care.
What does it mean if it all leads to the conflicts you are asking about?
But that’s not our choice, we don’t want that,” he said.

Vladimir Putin then explains that this is why Russia has defined its red
lines and wants to negotiate with the United States to obtain, among other
things, the non-extension of NATO further east, stressing that the ball is
now in Washington’s court, and that he hopes that the situation can be
unblocked through negotiation. But in view of the recent American
statements on their refusal to accept Russia’s security proposals for NATO,
I think that these negotiations will come to nothing.

A Sky News journalist then asked him whether he could unconditionally
guarantee that Russia would not attack Ukraine or any other sovereign
state, or whether this would depend on how the negotiations went.

The Russian President then reminded the audience that these security
requirements had been necessitated by the deployment of US missiles near
the Russian border, and that it was not Russia that had installed missiles
near the US.

“We have made it clear that a further move of NATO to the east is
unacceptable. What is incomprehensible? Are we putting missiles next to the
borders of the United States? No. It is the United States with its missiles
that have come to us, they are on our doorstep. Is it some kind of
superfluous demand that we do not put other strike systems near us? What is
unusual about that? What would the Americans think if we decided to put our
missiles on the border between Canada and the US or between Mexico and the
US?“, he pointed out.

“But the issue now is security – damn it […]. So it’s not the course of the
negotiations, it’s the outcome that matters to us. Don’t we know, I’ve said
this many times before, and you probably know it very well: not an inch to
the east – that’s what we were told in the 1990s. And then? We were
cheated. They cheated: five waves of NATO expansion, and now in Romania,
now in Poland, the systems concerned appear. […] We are not the ones making
threats. Have we reached the borders of the United States? Or the borders
of Britain, or somewhere else? They came to us and now they say: no,
Ukraine will also be in NATO. That means that there will be systems there
too. Or God forbid it’s not in NATO – there will be bases and strike
systems on a bilateral basis. That’s what it’s all about. And you are
demanding some kind of guarantee from me. You have to give us guarantees –
you! And immediately, right now,” Vladimir Putin said firmly.

A journalist from the Echo of Moscow then followed up on the same theme as
the Sky News journalist, asking whether Vladimir Putin had any common views
on what the future of Donbass should be, when both Russian and American
statements speak of war, and how the Russian President could envisage war
with Ukraine, ordering Russian soldiers to shoot Ukrainians.

Vladimir Putin replied that the Donbass future could only be determined by
those who live there, and that Russia is only there to help as a mediator.

“The Donbass future must be determined by the people who live in the
Donbass, that’s all, and it cannot be otherwise. We see our role as
mediators to create the best conditions to determine the future of the
people living in this territory. Is there a problem? Yes, because according
to the Minsk agreements, Russia is a mediator and they want to make us a
party to the conflict. There is nothing like that in the Minsk agreements
and we have not accepted that,” said the Russian President.

“As for the question “can we give the order to shoot”, ask the current
political leaders of Ukraine how they give the order to shoot at the
Donbass on a daily basis. You know, some time ago there were agreements
that only the higher ranking officials in the relevant ministries could
give the order to fire back in the event of fire from one side. So in one
case it was Donetsk, Lugansk, in the other case it was Kiev. Why was this
decision taken? To stop the shelling completely. Then the Kiev authorities
went back on this decision, transferring the decision-making power to the
field commanders, and everything started again. Ask them why they did this
and how they could do it by giving orders to shoot at their own citizens if
they consider the people living in the Donbass as their own citizens? Their
own, not foreigners,” he added.

This is a relevant question, as just this morning in Alexandrovka, in DPR,
a civilian was injured by grenade fire from Ukrainian soldiers <
https://t.me/DNR_SCKK/5829> as he crossed a bridge visible from Ukrainian
positions on his way to work. The man, who received multiple shrapnel
wounds, is in hospital in intensive care in a serious condition.

The Russian President then recalled that not only is Ukraine adopting laws
that violate the Minsk agreements, but it is also refusing to hold talks
with the DPR and LPR (Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics), as provided
for in these agreements, which were signed by the heads of the two Donbass
republics at Kiev’s request!

“It is written in the Minsk agreements that it is necessary to change the
Constitution of Ukraine and to ensure, in fact, autonomy, to hold elections
and to declare an amnesty. What do we see – I have already said this – in
the draft law on the transition period? Instead of elections, a military
administration. Instead of amnesty, repression. Instead of elections and
political solutions to political problems – the return of troops to their
places of permanent deployment. This is how the question is posed. What is
‘returning troops to places of permanent deployment’? That is, bringing
troops into this territory without any political process, without any
election. Look, there is a requirement in the Minsk agreements, as I said
before, to change the Constitution. Where are these changes in the
Constitution? At the same time, it says that they have to be agreed with
the representatives of the LPR and the DPR. They have to agree! I remember
this very well, because I was involved in the drafting of these decisions.
Not only do they not agree, not only do they not make any proposal to
change the constitution, but they refuse to talk to the representatives of
the Donbass, whereas when they signed these agreements in Minsk, they
themselves insisted that the representatives of the Donbass put their
signatures on this document. And those signatures are there. I must be
honest with you, they refused. We had to work with them to persuade them to
put those signatures. They did, but now they refuse to talk to them, they
declare them terrorists and say: we won’t talk to them. Can you explain
why?” asks Vladimir Putin.

For the Russian President, Volodymyr Zelensky had fallen under the
influence of Ukrainian neo-Nazis, which made it impossible to establish
normal relations with the current Ukrainian leadership because of their
actions. He also recalled that in Ukraine those who, like Viktor
Medvedchuk, want good relations with Russia are persecuted, imprisoned and
even murdered in the street.

Even if Russia does not want a war with Ukraine, it seems unfortunately
that its red lines are taken lightly by the West, while the escalation
continues in the Donbass.

Christelle Néant

<https://t.me/donbassinsider> <https://t.me/donbassinsider>


> On Jan 27, 2022, , at 1:09 PM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 27. January 2022 at 18:58:55, Joseph Tracy (brook7 at sover.net <mailto:
brook7 at sover.net>) wrote:
>> So maybe the people in the Donbass were fighting with the Ukrainian
government for the heck of it.
>
> They’re drafted. They don’t decide. Moscow does. That simple.
>
>> I don’t know who is putting forth the ‘purest’ fiction, but it’s not
like the networks are trying real hard to find out what the people in
eastern Ukraine are thinking.
>
> Systematically finding out what the people in the occupied territories
think is next to impossible, because if living there you get under suspect
of sympathising with Ukraine you end up in jail.
>
> I already mentioned this chap I know who spent several years in the
“isolatsiya” (just if you missed that one).
>
> What you can find out however is how the people in the
government-controlled part of the Donbas think. And, as already mentioned
there is no support for any kind of “separatism” or longing for closer ties
with Russia.
>
> But why do I have to repeat this? I had already explained this yesterday
night.
>

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