more Ukraine research and thoughts.

[Mark Kohut]

You missed remarking that what happens when Russian troops move in, if they
do, will not be good for anyone, esp the Ukranians.

Ukraine is a sovereign country. *Ukraine
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine>* was one of the founding members of
the *United Nations <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations>* when it
joined in 1945 as the *Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic>*; along
with the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byelorussian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic>,
Ukraine signed the  United Nations Charter
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Charter> when they were part
of the Soviet Union <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union>.
After the dissolution
of the Soviet Union
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union> in 1991,
the newly independent Ukraine retained its seat.

Ukraine is entitled to all the rights under the UN Charter for States,
Article 2 mostly but all of them. I think.

If NATO did not exist, Ukraine has the right NOT to be violated in its
sovereignty. Russian troops are escalating shooting at the borders. You can
project whatever you want about what entities you hate---not Russia---MIGHT
do, but this is the international law case, more clear than Trump's treason.

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 12:59 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> So maybe the people in the Donbass were fighting with the Ukrainian
> government for the heck of it. I don’t know who is putting forth the
> ‘purest’ fiction, but it’s not like the networks are trying real hard to
> find out what the people in eastern Ukraine are thinking.
>
> As far as who loves geopolitical bull, how is the push for NATO not
> geopolitical bull? Isn’t that the real heart of this. That Russia is saying
> no more Nato encroachment. I don’t believe there is any credible evidence
> that agreeing that Nato will stay out of Ukraine would result in Russia
> trying to take over Ukraine.
>
> So today the US made clear they are ignoring Russia’s position on Nato.
> This could effectively be the end of anything like negotiation.  What
> happens when Nato troops move in is not likely to be good for anyone.
> '
> > On Jan 27, 2022, at 10:03 AM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 at 15:49, Johnny Marr <marrja at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> and you’re not backing up your points with evidence
> >>
> >
> > Neither are you.
> >
> > What probably separates the two of us is me having spent a considerable
> > amount of time in various parts of Ukraine over the last 25 years,
> speaking
> > fluent Ukrainian and understanding Russian rather well and living amongst
> > Ukrainians where I am now.
> >
> > You can choose to trust me on this.
> > You can also do the research yourself by talking to a representative
> number
> > of Ukrainians instead.
> > What you should better not do is believe what "alternative media",
> > geopolitics-loving bloggers and the like write about the country. 90% of
> > that stuff is pure fiction.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > m.
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>
>
>
> --
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>