NP - for the Ukraine discussion group

[Joseph Tracy]

Said plenty already, trying to be thorough, you can read it if you want. The question for me is why do you want Ukraine to invite the world’s biggest bully into their homeland to aim missiles and shit at Russia?  

> On Jan 28, 2022, at 1:11 PM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> And that's why you think it's legitimate to let Moscow do the same to Ukraine?
> Well...
> 
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 at 18:31, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> It just seems to me in considering Ukraine and Ukrainians as subject, the danger of provoking an unnecessary war  might be a primary consideration for them as such a war is likely to bring enormous damage to Ukrainians.   As far as a country that talks about others infinging on their vital interests, this is the common, widely used language of the US government. The sad truth is that we , certainly the US,  have not learned shit since 1945. We continue to invade and blockade, torture  and drone using the language of vital national interests. 
> 
> 
> > On Jan 28, 2022, at 11:16 AM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com <mailto:mdietze at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > Howdy, too.
> > While I most likely will not agree with him, I'm out anyway.
> > I really want to concentrate on providing first hand information on Ukraine
> > (maybe also debunking myths) and on insisting that the ones making decision
> > about Ukraine's future should really be its people.
> > I doubt that "geopolitical intellctualism" is beneficial, regardless which
> > direction it chooses, as long as Ukraine is treated as an object rather
> > than a subject.
> > The Mearsheimers of this world tend to do just that.
> > 
> > Plase just try to imagine your country and your people being talked like
> > this: there's a crisis about you, you violate other countries' "vital
> > interests", you're supposed to remain in some other country's "sphere of
> > interests", and your vital interests (which you have a right to have, just
> > consider the KSCE agreement all super powers have signed) are in fact
> > considered irrelevant, you're actually being blamed to be manipulated by
> > THEM. What would your reaction be like?
> > 
> > That's my perspective. If not the people are put first, if international
> > contracts are being ignored and the "weaker countries" just get a kick in
> > the bottom, then we haven't learned a shit since 1945.
> > 
> > On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 at 16:19, matthew cissell <mccissell at gmail.com <mailto:mccissell at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > 
> >> Howdy,
> >> 
> >> By following the exchange between the various parties on this subject, I
> >> have certainly been prompted to chase down some references.
> >> 
> >> Then the YT algo stepped in and chucked a lecture at me. University of
> >> Chicago Professor John Mearsheimer gave a lecture back in 2015 called
> >> "UnCommon
> >> Core: The Causes and Consequences of the Ukraine Crisis". I think it has
> >> aged well; you can find other videos in which he talks on the subject. He
> >> is far from being a hawkish republican. In 40 minutes you get his message,
> >> and it's worth listening to.
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4>
> >> 
> >> ciao
> >> mc otis
> >> 
> >> <
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> >>> 
> >> Libre
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> >> <
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