Re: “Russia is trying to get the Ukraine to come to its senses.”

Thu Oct 6 13:43:48 UTC 2022

I appreciate your informed information and judgment......but I cannot agree
with this line, I'm sorry.....
What Putin is doing is qualitatively different.

"In other words, we are not much better than the Putins of the world".
 ---Ian.....

On Thu, Oct 6, 2022 at 9:34 AM Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The US is no better than Canada in regards to the treatment of the Indians
> and Alaska Natives whose civilizations were decimated by the diseases the
> Europeans brought west. Following the genocides of the 18th and 19th
> centuries, the oppression of the 20th C was merely miserable by comparison.
> It has taken until this late era for European Americans to begin to catch a
> few brief whiffs of what our forefathers did to steal this land and allow
> at least some token representation for the savaged civilizations that
> flourished here before smallpox and swine flu arrived, followed by the guns
> of the white savages.
>
> It is changing, here and in Canada, but we still oppress, especially so
> the descendants of the great Aztec, Mayan, and Inca empires to the south.
> We still do what we can to avoid fair trade with those of them willing to
> trade with savages like us who don’t even know the importance of the land.
> We still turn our back to their needs.
>
> In other words, we are not much better than the Putins of the world. But
> we still have a set of ideas enshrined in the foundational documents and
> debates that at least challenges us to do better.
>
> I still hope we might, as we mature. If we mature.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Oct 6, 2022, at 3:44 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Blind Boy Tracy and change. Doesn't see it when he wants to Never Forget
> > certain countries....
> >
> > What Germany did so dramatically in deNazifying itself might be the
> > touchstone example of many countries which change themselves
> > noticeably over time.....
> > Joseph are you aware that Canada, despite and because of what it did to
> its
> > indigenous population long ago now is now maybe the leading country in
> > creating new laws and
> > established precedence in international law re indigenous rights. (My
> > terrif international law prof, also a lawyer, is one of the broad team of
> > UN consultants who
> > go over (when asked) every line of every statement from the UN, and
> > proposed laws and decrees, etc and he told us the above about Canada.
> Show
> > your work,
> > Joseph, not that lame nobody and I know it is hard when the basics of the
> > work is so flawed and almost always wrong)
> >
> >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 3:56 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Stalin stopped the German Army and freed the world of Hitler and then
> went
> >> mad with power and paranoia. He is not the definition of Russia, but of
> a
> >> long history of  people who show that power corrupts and absolute power
> >> corrupts absolutely.   As to who is the worst mass murderer, that would
> >> depend on the victim. To a Cree child raped and then murdered by
> catholic
> >> priests, the Canadian government and the church will be the relevant
> >> oppressor, for a vietnamese peasant burned alive with napalm or born
> with a
> >> body disfigured by agent orange the US will be every bit as bad as
> Stalln
> >> or Hitler.
> >>  It does not take much to see who leads the wars of mass destruction on
> >> behalf of oil, banking and mining interests in today’s world and the US
> and
> >> Canada are far worse that what is happening between Russia and the
> latest
> >> US proxy.
> >>
> >> As to Kohut’s appeal to international law, give me a break, where was
> that
> >> in Abu Graibh, in Libya, Syria, in Gaza, Bolivia, Venezuela?  Shall I go
> >> on, do you want specifics? You don’t. You have never once opposed US
> abuse
> >> of power that I have heard.  The law you refer to is not law but
> >> shamelessly hypocritical imperial fire power which you do in fact agree
> >> with, supportand believe in with little to no exception.
> >>
> >> It is funny that you talk about different administrations as though
> there
> >> were important policy changes, you know like murder by patriot missile
> to
> >> murder by drone, like moving the embassy to Jerusalem to leaving it in
> >> Jerusalem as a done deal, like the multi-adimistration and
> >> multi-government  torture of Julian Assange for exposing Government
> >> documents,  like ending the Iran nuclear agreement to leaving the
> sanctions
> >> in place, like pretending we were winning in Afghanistan to admitting we
> >> lost years ago( All of these also serving as more examples of the
> >> sacredness of international law) Then it is even funnier when Fuller
> >> supports this crap but goes on to cite Stalin who has been dead and
> >> publicly rejected by Russian leaders for a long time.
> >>
> >>>> David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Why must you always make everything about “us” 🇺🇸?
> >> OK Morris, Why do you always make everything about some 'them' that is
> >> current hate fetish of the Democratic party? Why do you need to add
> >> personal insults to every political or moral argument? Why shouldn’t the
> >> most warlike and greed-led power in the world with the largest military
> >> budget be held to account for its crimes? I don’t like Iranian
> patriarchal
> >> dress codes or chinese limits on speech but neither country comes close
> in
> >> provable human rights abuses to Egypt, Israel, Turkey, the Phiippines
> >> Saudi Arabia or the US  military and CIA, yet all these are Amerca’s
> >> ‘friends'. In your world it does not matter the quality or quantity of
> >> crimes; if they are comitted by a democrat they are above suspicion or
> >> criticism. If they are currently ‘friends ‘ of the US they are above the
> >> law and have a right to the License to Kill.
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Oct 3, 2022, at 12:27 PM, Arthur Fuller <fuller.artful at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Well stated, Mark.
> >>>
> >>> As a Canadian, and also a Métis, I have a few issues with my nation,
> but
> >>> these do not include persons such as Stalin and Lenin.  Fortunately we
> >> have
> >>> not suffered persons quite so bad; we have had our share of bad
> persons,
> >>> such as John A. MacDonald and a few others.
> >>>
> >>>> On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 5:13 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> He is the stereotype of What Aboutism?...Yo mama too, as if any of us
> >> who
> >>>> condemn Russia must THEREFORE believe
> >>>> that everything the US has done we agree with, justify, support and
> >> believe
> >>>> in.
> >>>>
> >>>> He is contextless in spades. His lack of belief in international law
> >> means
> >>>> he has no grounds but his own biases to judge
> >>>> the actions of the US or any other countries....
> >>>>
> >>>> And, as if the bad shit one administration does, which we all condemn
> >> means
> >>>> every other administration, including the current
> >>>> one, which courageously brought US soldiers out of the Middle East and
> >>>> carefully, totally, thoroughly is working within international
> >>>> law with all the nations of the UN re the Russian invasion, the most
> >> number
> >>>> of them in its history which has ever condemned one nation for its
> >>>> war-making....
> >>>>
> >>>> That your hatred of America's sins means you support Russia is
> >>>> cra-cra.....that's Joseph.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 6:22 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Why must you always make everything about “us” 🇺🇸?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 3:45 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Whereas you are so profoundly calm and reasonable  and carefully
> >>>>>> tentative, and well armed with friendly logical arguments that only
> >>>> sound
> >>>>>> like childish insults.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As to the use of force, the Russians have beahaved with kid gloves
> >>>>>> compared to US Shock and Awe. Which had nothing to do with 'might
> >> makes
> >>>>>> right' or geopolitically motivated mass murder.  What could be
> kinder
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> more democratic than depleted uranium? And look at what we have done
> >>>> for
> >>>>>> Yemen, for Palestinians, for Afghanistan and Syria and so many
> others.
> >>>>> See
> >>>>>> how democracy and human rights bloom wherever we go.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sep 30, 2022, at 1:29 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 9:13 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> [JoeyT) rejects  EVERYTHING involved in International Law
> >>>> […]...Joseph's
> >>>>>>> foreign policy frame is the fiercest of force...of might makes
> >>>>>>> right....combined with a total hatred of the might of the US, no
> >>>> matter
> >>>>>>> what it does.....
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> There’s a character in Flannery O’Connor’s *Wise Blood*, that walks
> >>>>>> around with rocks in his shoes. *Joey T* reminds me of him.  He
> seems
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> have a harsh religious fervor, punishingly certain.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Arthur
> >>> --
> >>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>