Re: “Russia is trying to get the Ukraine to come to its senses.”

Ian Livingston igrlivingston at gmail.com
Thu Oct 6 20:24:20 UTC 2022 

That’s okay, Mark. I invite disagreement. I was not talking qualitative comparisons so much as a matter of degree. And I’m not basing my measure on the moment, but upon history. Also, I suggest that we are improving. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 6, 2022, at 6:44 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I appreciate your informed information and judgment......but I cannot agree with this line, I'm sorry.....
> What Putin is doing is qualitatively different. 
> 
> "In other words, we are not much better than the Putins of the world". ---Ian.....
> 
>> On Thu, Oct 6, 2022 at 9:34 AM Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The US is no better than Canada in regards to the treatment of the Indians and Alaska Natives whose civilizations were decimated by the diseases the Europeans brought west. Following the genocides of the 18th and 19th centuries, the oppression of the 20th C was merely miserable by comparison. It has taken until this late era for European Americans to begin to catch a few brief whiffs of what our forefathers did to steal this land and allow at least some token representation for the savaged civilizations that flourished here before smallpox and swine flu arrived, followed by the guns of the white savages. 
>> 
>> It is changing, here and in Canada, but we still oppress, especially so the descendants of the great Aztec, Mayan, and Inca empires to the south. We still do what we can to avoid fair trade with those of them willing to trade with savages like us who don’t even know the importance of the land. We still turn our back to their needs. 
>> 
>> In other words, we are not much better than the Putins of the world. But we still have a set of ideas enshrined in the foundational documents and debates that at least challenges us to do better. 
>> 
>> I still hope we might, as we mature. If we mature. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> > On Oct 6, 2022, at 3:44 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Blind Boy Tracy and change. Doesn't see it when he wants to Never Forget
>> > certain countries....
>> > 
>> > What Germany did so dramatically in deNazifying itself might be the
>> > touchstone example of many countries which change themselves
>> > noticeably over time.....
>> > Joseph are you aware that Canada, despite and because of what it did to its
>> > indigenous population long ago now is now maybe the leading country in
>> > creating new laws and
>> > established precedence in international law re indigenous rights. (My
>> > terrif international law prof, also a lawyer, is one of the broad team of
>> > UN consultants who
>> > go over (when asked) every line of every statement from the UN, and
>> > proposed laws and decrees, etc and he told us the above about Canada. Show
>> > your work,
>> > Joseph, not that lame nobody and I know it is hard when the basics of the
>> > work is so flawed and almost always wrong)
>> > 
>> >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 3:56 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> Stalin stopped the German Army and freed the world of Hitler and then went
>> >> mad with power and paranoia. He is not the definition of Russia, but of a
>> >> long history of  people who show that power corrupts and absolute power
>> >> corrupts absolutely.   As to who is the worst mass murderer, that would
>> >> depend on the victim. To a Cree child raped and then murdered by catholic
>> >> priests, the Canadian government and the church will be the relevant
>> >> oppressor, for a vietnamese peasant burned alive with napalm or born with a
>> >> body disfigured by agent orange the US will be every bit as bad as Stalln
>> >> or Hitler.
>> >>  It does not take much to see who leads the wars of mass destruction on
>> >> behalf of oil, banking and mining interests in today’s world and the US and
>> >> Canada are far worse that what is happening between Russia and the latest
>> >> US proxy.
>> >> 
>> >> As to Kohut’s appeal to international law, give me a break, where was that
>> >> in Abu Graibh, in Libya, Syria, in Gaza, Bolivia, Venezuela?  Shall I go
>> >> on, do you want specifics? You don’t. You have never once opposed US abuse
>> >> of power that I have heard.  The law you refer to is not law but
>> >> shamelessly hypocritical imperial fire power which you do in fact agree
>> >> with, supportand believe in with little to no exception.
>> >> 
>> >> It is funny that you talk about different administrations as though there
>> >> were important policy changes, you know like murder by patriot missile to
>> >> murder by drone, like moving the embassy to Jerusalem to leaving it in
>> >> Jerusalem as a done deal, like the multi-adimistration and
>> >> multi-government  torture of Julian Assange for exposing Government
>> >> documents,  like ending the Iran nuclear agreement to leaving the sanctions
>> >> in place, like pretending we were winning in Afghanistan to admitting we
>> >> lost years ago( All of these also serving as more examples of the
>> >> sacredness of international law) Then it is even funnier when Fuller
>> >> supports this crap but goes on to cite Stalin who has been dead and
>> >> publicly rejected by Russian leaders for a long time.
>> >> 
>> >>>> David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> Why must you always make everything about “us” 🇺🇸?
>> >> OK Morris, Why do you always make everything about some 'them' that is
>> >> current hate fetish of the Democratic party? Why do you need to add
>> >> personal insults to every political or moral argument? Why shouldn’t the
>> >> most warlike and greed-led power in the world with the largest military
>> >> budget be held to account for its crimes? I don’t like Iranian patriarchal
>> >> dress codes or chinese limits on speech but neither country comes close in
>> >> provable human rights abuses to Egypt, Israel, Turkey, the Phiippines
>> >> Saudi Arabia or the US  military and CIA, yet all these are Amerca’s
>> >> ‘friends'. In your world it does not matter the quality or quantity of
>> >> crimes; if they are comitted by a democrat they are above suspicion or
>> >> criticism. If they are currently ‘friends ‘ of the US they are above the
>> >> law and have a right to the License to Kill.
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >>> On Oct 3, 2022, at 12:27 PM, Arthur Fuller <fuller.artful at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> 
>> >>> Well stated, Mark.
>> >>> 
>> >>> As a Canadian, and also a Métis, I have a few issues with my nation, but
>> >>> these do not include persons such as Stalin and Lenin.  Fortunately we
>> >> have
>> >>> not suffered persons quite so bad; we have had our share of bad persons,
>> >>> such as John A. MacDonald and a few others.
>> >>> 
>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 5:13 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> 
>> >>>> He is the stereotype of What Aboutism?...Yo mama too, as if any of us
>> >> who
>> >>>> condemn Russia must THEREFORE believe
>> >>>> that everything the US has done we agree with, justify, support and
>> >> believe
>> >>>> in.
>> >>>> 
>> >>>> He is contextless in spades. His lack of belief in international law
>> >> means
>> >>>> he has no grounds but his own biases to judge
>> >>>> the actions of the US or any other countries....
>> >>>> 
>> >>>> And, as if the bad shit one administration does, which we all condemn
>> >> means
>> >>>> every other administration, including the current
>> >>>> one, which courageously brought US soldiers out of the Middle East and
>> >>>> carefully, totally, thoroughly is working within international
>> >>>> law with all the nations of the UN re the Russian invasion, the most
>> >> number
>> >>>> of them in its history which has ever condemned one nation for its
>> >>>> war-making....
>> >>>> 
>> >>>> That your hatred of America's sins means you support Russia is
>> >>>> cra-cra.....that's Joseph.
>> >>>> 
>> >>>> On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 6:22 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> 
>> >>>>> Why must you always make everything about “us” 🇺🇸?
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 3:45 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>>> Whereas you are so profoundly calm and reasonable  and carefully
>> >>>>>> tentative, and well armed with friendly logical arguments that only
>> >>>> sound
>> >>>>>> like childish insults.
>> >>>>>> 
>> >>>>>> As to the use of force, the Russians have beahaved with kid gloves
>> >>>>>> compared to US Shock and Awe. Which had nothing to do with 'might
>> >> makes
>> >>>>>> right' or geopolitically motivated mass murder.  What could be kinder
>> >>>> and
>> >>>>>> more democratic than depleted uranium? And look at what we have done
>> >>>> for
>> >>>>>> Yemen, for Palestinians, for Afghanistan and Syria and so many others.
>> >>>>> See
>> >>>>>> how democracy and human rights bloom wherever we go.
>> >>>>>> 
>> >>>>>> On Sep 30, 2022, at 1:29 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>> 
>> >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 9:13 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>> 
>> >>>>>>> 
>> >>>>>> [JoeyT) rejects  EVERYTHING involved in International Law
>> >>>> […]...Joseph's
>> >>>>>>> foreign policy frame is the fiercest of force...of might makes
>> >>>>>>> right....combined with a total hatred of the might of the US, no
>> >>>> matter
>> >>>>>>> what it does.....
>> >>>>>>> 
>> >>>>>> There’s a character in Flannery O’Connor’s *Wise Blood*, that walks
>> >>>>>> around with rocks in his shoes. *Joey T* reminds me of him.  He seems
>> >>>> to
>> >>>>>> have a harsh religious fervor, punishingly certain.
>> >>>>>> 
>> >>>>>> 
>> >>>>>> 
>> >>>>>> 
>> >>>>>> 
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> >>>> 
>> >>> 
>> >>> 
>> >>> --
>> >>> Arthur
>> >>> --
>> >>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> --
>> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> >> 
>> > --
>> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l

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