GRAYZONE, that black rag: Can't cut & paste

Sat Mar 18 16:46:59 UTC 2023

Joseph—

ICC on Putin’s war crimes. All those kidnapped children. Give me 1) the rationalized conspiracy explanation—of the ICC, which the US, as you know,  does not acknowledge it because the US has been bad and doesn’t want judged. 2) your usual whataboutism indicting Ukraine or the US or both. 

Tell me again about chemical use not by Syria in Syria and the White Helmets. 

When does being wrong ever change a thought? You are the most Trump-like person I’ve ever interacted with. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 18, 2023, at 12:32 PM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Thank you for confirming what I wrote earlier today. People considering
> others as "experts" if - and mainly because! - they fit into their
> pre-existing world views.
> 
>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 at 17:27, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Mcarthyist Crap and  name-calling. The maistream media constantly
>> publishes conspiracy theories as news and gets caught. WMDs, Trump
>> controlled by Kremlin, vaccines prevent Covid and are safe, Nordstream
>> blown up by Russia, Russia reduced to fighting with shovels, no aggression
>> by Ukraine government, the Biden laptop was a classic Russian operation,
>> the Steele dossier, ...
>>   Ray Mcgovern is an expert in Russia and was in CIA’s Russia bureau.
>> Scott Ritter negotiated nuclear arms treaties with them, and was absolutely
>> right about WMDs in Iraq. Sachs worked for the government of post Soviet
>> Russia as an economic advisor, also in Poland, Slovenia, and Estonia.
>> Steven Cohen appeared on the Grayzone and and was a source on Ukraine  and
>> Russia there  until his death. He  had a Phd in Russia studies, was a
>> friend of Gorbachev. So you are just lying about “no expertise”. Show me
>> Zelensky’s "expertise" learned while pretending to play a piano with his
>> cock on Ukrainian TV. How can you take yourself seriously.
>> 
>> On Mar 18, 2023, at 6:59 AM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, it *does* matter, who wrote the stuff you're sharing here. Most of
>> the names you mention are no experts on Eastern Europe but rather (often:
>> self-proclaimed) "experts" on "geo politics", known for both their pro
>> Putin stance and sharing conspiracy theories. Outlets like the Greyzone are
>> known for the same.
>> 
>> Katchanovski is somewhat different. He has become the anti-Western,
>> Ukraine conspiracy theory fans' poster boy after publishing an article
>> laying out his theories on the Maidan shootings in February 2014 - an
>> article that had not undergone any peer reviews, hence of no scientific
>> relevance, and would most appropriately be classified as a "blog". There's
>> nothing bad about this per se, but Katchanovski has never *proven*
>> anything. His theories are nothing more than theories, and they haven't
>> been adopted (or taken terribly seriously) by the community. However
>> *because* he shares what anti Westerners and conspiracy theorists had
>> "known" right from the start, his article and all the comments and notes he
>> has published on this since then have been taken by these people as "proof"
>> - which they aren't.
>> 
>> Another comment (rant) on "geo politics" which has become kind of a
>> religion to some. "Geo political" analysis is very convenient, because you
>> don't need to know anything about the particular conflict, crisis etc. you
>> want to "analyse": the basic pattern behind "geo politics" (i.e. there are
>> the super powers, they have their interests, and everything can be
>> explained by this) allow you to write stuff that (a) sounds good, (b) seems
>> logical and (c) will guarantee you the community's applause and agreement.
>> 
>> There's lots of these "experts" on "geo politics" (take Pablo Escobar for
>> instance) who clearly haben't got the slightest clue about Ukraine, what
>> has happened there and what is still happening there, and who still keep
>> publishing about it, being cited and shared by others. And what these
>> people publish will pop up in publications like "The Greyzone" (supposedly
>> "left"), the UNZ Review (alt-right, anti-semitic), The Saker (openly pro
>> Putin) etc. These publications form a network where left and right hold
>> hands - that's what some people call "Third Position".
>> 
>> It is also worthwhile looking up more information about authors. A good
>> number of those you mentioned not only hold rather controversial positions,
>> they also are part of Putin's networks - something you can rather easily
>> identify when such names pop up in Putin's "Valdai Discussion Club" (to
>> which *only* people with "friendly" positions are invited), or publish in
>> Putin's propaganda outlet "Russia Today" on a regular basis.
>> 
>> "Alternative media" are a business model, and one of their key elements
>> are conspiracy theories: they are a key part of these outlets' Loyalty
>> business model, telling customers that "mainstream media" don't tell the
>> "whole truth" and only in "alternative media" people learn what's really
>> going on. Conspiracy theories prove themselves. Once people have started
>> believing in them they will rigorously reject any information proving them
>> wrong - and generate the revenue keeping these outlets alive.
>> 
>> Long story short: sources *do matter*. Believers will however continue
>> believing once they have entered the infinite conspiracy theory feedback
>> loop.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> m.
>> 
>> P.S.: I seem to remember you were unhappy about me replying to off-topic,
>> non-Pynchon posts here. This problem can be solved: just stop posting
>> off-topic contents others cannot stay silent about.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 at 02:43, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> When Kohut  or Morris treat me with some respect I will do likewise. But
>>> I never use honorifics. I don’t remember being called Mr. Tracy by anyone
>>> on the list, so don’t hold your breath, Martin.
>>> 
>>> There are many journalists and writers like those of media outlets like
>>> Consortium News, the Grayzone, Scheerpost, Resistance Radio, the Scott
>>> Horton Show, Ray McGovern’s podcast,  along with individual writers like
>>> Jeffrey Sachs, Oliver Stone, Julian Assange, Ed Snowden, Scott Ritter,
>>> Seymour Hersch, Jeff Gerth, Doug McGregor, or Matt Taibbi  who question the
>>> US government via actual research and facts and very persuasive logic.
>>> Calling these regularly published writers and former insiders "Putin’s
>>> mouthpiece" is a truly lame and baseless accusation, Joe McCarthy would be
>>> proud.  How about truth-tellers who got it right on several issues while
>>> Kohut and Morris, whose mail I rarely open, got it dead wrong. How about
>>> people who have risked their lives to tell the truth. Did a single one of
>>> you read the article or have a challenge for any fact reported by the
>>> Grayzone writers or Consortium News.
>>>  There were 2 incidents of mass killing in the Maidan Coup involving
>>> about 110 people murdered. These crimes were never investigated to this
>>> day. The Canadian writer, academic, Ivan Katchanovski,  did a deep dive
>>> into the question and his thoroughly documented report initially received
>>> with enthusiasm, and supported by the likes of Jeffrey Sachs went
>>> unpublished with no challenge to his research.  All you can think to do is
>>> call names at a publisher. Pathetic.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 15, 2023, at 3:01 AM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 at 05:58, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:
>>> brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
>>>> Seems like Kohut uses artificial intelligence on a regular basis.
>>>> 
>>>> "Mr. Kohut" would be more appropriate. Does this rudeness happen to
>>> have any connection to the "alternative media" you seem to consume on a
>>> regular basis?
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> 
>>>> Martin (by the way I'm fine with you addressing me as "Martin"; if you
>>> don't like this, "Dr. Dietze" will do)
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Dr. Martin Dietze
>>>> [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/ <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/
>>>> ]
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Vorsitzender - Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
>>>> Голова - Німецько-Українське Товариство Культури
>>>> [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/ <
>>> http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/>]
>>>> 
>>>> Redakteur / Редактор - Karpaty Lviv Nachrichten
>>>> [https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com <
>>> https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/>]
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Dr. Martin Dietze
>> [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/]
>> 
>> 1. Vorsitzender - Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
>> Голова - Німецько-Українське Товариство Культури
>> [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/]
>> 
>> Redakteur / Редактор - Karpaty Lviv Nachrichten
>> [https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com]
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Martin Dietze
> [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/]
> 
> 1. Vorsitzender - Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
> Голова - Німецько-Українське Товариство Культури
> [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/]
> 
> Redakteur / Редактор - Karpaty Lviv Nachrichten
> [https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com]
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l