GRAYZONE, that black rag: Can't cut & paste

Sat Mar 18 16:31:59 UTC 2023

Thank you for confirming what I wrote earlier today. People considering
others as "experts" if - and mainly because! - they fit into their
pre-existing world views.

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 at 17:27, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> Mcarthyist Crap and  name-calling. The maistream media constantly
> publishes conspiracy theories as news and gets caught. WMDs, Trump
> controlled by Kremlin, vaccines prevent Covid and are safe, Nordstream
> blown up by Russia, Russia reduced to fighting with shovels, no aggression
> by Ukraine government, the Biden laptop was a classic Russian operation,
> the Steele dossier, ...
>    Ray Mcgovern is an expert in Russia and was in CIA’s Russia bureau.
> Scott Ritter negotiated nuclear arms treaties with them, and was absolutely
> right about WMDs in Iraq. Sachs worked for the government of post Soviet
> Russia as an economic advisor, also in Poland, Slovenia, and Estonia.
> Steven Cohen appeared on the Grayzone and and was a source on Ukraine  and
> Russia there  until his death. He  had a Phd in Russia studies, was a
> friend of Gorbachev. So you are just lying about “no expertise”. Show me
> Zelensky’s "expertise" learned while pretending to play a piano with his
> cock on Ukrainian TV. How can you take yourself seriously.
>
> On Mar 18, 2023, at 6:59 AM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, it *does* matter, who wrote the stuff you're sharing here. Most of
> the names you mention are no experts on Eastern Europe but rather (often:
> self-proclaimed) "experts" on "geo politics", known for both their pro
> Putin stance and sharing conspiracy theories. Outlets like the Greyzone are
> known for the same.
>
> Katchanovski is somewhat different. He has become the anti-Western,
> Ukraine conspiracy theory fans' poster boy after publishing an article
> laying out his theories on the Maidan shootings in February 2014 - an
> article that had not undergone any peer reviews, hence of no scientific
> relevance, and would most appropriately be classified as a "blog". There's
> nothing bad about this per se, but Katchanovski has never *proven*
> anything. His theories are nothing more than theories, and they haven't
> been adopted (or taken terribly seriously) by the community. However
> *because* he shares what anti Westerners and conspiracy theorists had
> "known" right from the start, his article and all the comments and notes he
> has published on this since then have been taken by these people as "proof"
> - which they aren't.
>
> Another comment (rant) on "geo politics" which has become kind of a
> religion to some. "Geo political" analysis is very convenient, because you
> don't need to know anything about the particular conflict, crisis etc. you
> want to "analyse": the basic pattern behind "geo politics" (i.e. there are
> the super powers, they have their interests, and everything can be
> explained by this) allow you to write stuff that (a) sounds good, (b) seems
> logical and (c) will guarantee you the community's applause and agreement.
>
> There's lots of these "experts" on "geo politics" (take Pablo Escobar for
> instance) who clearly haben't got the slightest clue about Ukraine, what
> has happened there and what is still happening there, and who still keep
> publishing about it, being cited and shared by others. And what these
> people publish will pop up in publications like "The Greyzone" (supposedly
> "left"), the UNZ Review (alt-right, anti-semitic), The Saker (openly pro
> Putin) etc. These publications form a network where left and right hold
> hands - that's what some people call "Third Position".
>
> It is also worthwhile looking up more information about authors. A good
> number of those you mentioned not only hold rather controversial positions,
> they also are part of Putin's networks - something you can rather easily
> identify when such names pop up in Putin's "Valdai Discussion Club" (to
> which *only* people with "friendly" positions are invited), or publish in
> Putin's propaganda outlet "Russia Today" on a regular basis.
>
> "Alternative media" are a business model, and one of their key elements
> are conspiracy theories: they are a key part of these outlets' Loyalty
> business model, telling customers that "mainstream media" don't tell the
> "whole truth" and only in "alternative media" people learn what's really
> going on. Conspiracy theories prove themselves. Once people have started
> believing in them they will rigorously reject any information proving them
> wrong - and generate the revenue keeping these outlets alive.
>
> Long story short: sources *do matter*. Believers will however continue
> believing once they have entered the infinite conspiracy theory feedback
> loop.
>
> Cheers,
>
> m.
>
> P.S.: I seem to remember you were unhappy about me replying to off-topic,
> non-Pynchon posts here. This problem can be solved: just stop posting
> off-topic contents others cannot stay silent about.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 at 02:43, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>
>> When Kohut  or Morris treat me with some respect I will do likewise. But
>> I never use honorifics. I don’t remember being called Mr. Tracy by anyone
>> on the list, so don’t hold your breath, Martin.
>>
>> There are many journalists and writers like those of media outlets like
>> Consortium News, the Grayzone, Scheerpost, Resistance Radio, the Scott
>> Horton Show, Ray McGovern’s podcast,  along with individual writers like
>> Jeffrey Sachs, Oliver Stone, Julian Assange, Ed Snowden, Scott Ritter,
>> Seymour Hersch, Jeff Gerth, Doug McGregor, or Matt Taibbi  who question the
>> US government via actual research and facts and very persuasive logic.
>> Calling these regularly published writers and former insiders "Putin’s
>> mouthpiece" is a truly lame and baseless accusation, Joe McCarthy would be
>> proud.  How about truth-tellers who got it right on several issues while
>> Kohut and Morris, whose mail I rarely open, got it dead wrong. How about
>> people who have risked their lives to tell the truth. Did a single one of
>> you read the article or have a challenge for any fact reported by the
>> Grayzone writers or Consortium News.
>>   There were 2 incidents of mass killing in the Maidan Coup involving
>> about 110 people murdered. These crimes were never investigated to this
>> day. The Canadian writer, academic, Ivan Katchanovski,  did a deep dive
>> into the question and his thoroughly documented report initially received
>> with enthusiasm, and supported by the likes of Jeffrey Sachs went
>> unpublished with no challenge to his research.  All you can think to do is
>> call names at a publisher. Pathetic.
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 15, 2023, at 3:01 AM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 at 05:58, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:
>> brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
>> > Seems like Kohut uses artificial intelligence on a regular basis.
>> >
>> > "Mr. Kohut" would be more appropriate. Does this rudeness happen to
>> have any connection to the "alternative media" you seem to consume on a
>> regular basis?
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Martin (by the way I'm fine with you addressing me as "Martin"; if you
>> don't like this, "Dr. Dietze" will do)
>> >
>> > --
>> > Dr. Martin Dietze
>> > [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/ <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/
>> >]
>> >
>> > 1. Vorsitzender - Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
>> > Голова - Німецько-Українське Товариство Культури
>> > [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/ <
>> http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/>]
>> >
>> > Redakteur / Редактор - Karpaty Lviv Nachrichten
>> > [https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com <
>> https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/>]
>>
>> --
>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Martin Dietze
> [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/]
>
> 1. Vorsitzender - Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
> Голова - Німецько-Українське Товариство Культури
> [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/]
>
> Redakteur / Редактор - Karpaty Lviv Nachrichten
> [https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com]
>
>
>

-- 
Dr. Martin Dietze
[https://www.martins-braindumps.de/]

1. Vorsitzender - Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
Голова - Німецько-Українське Товариство Культури
[http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/]

Redakteur / Редактор - Karpaty Lviv Nachrichten
[https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com]