GRAYZONE, that black rag: Can't cut & paste

[Mark Kohut]

I hate the f*in sleight of linguistic hand.....Hubschrauber comes in after,
in support of,  Joseph's "Ukrainian Army" only shelling for years....(check
it out)
and then cooly says I meant both sides as the OSCE reports.........and NOW
no longer trusts either side, the cool balloon-high condemnation of both
sides because, of course, war is bad and both rotten sides
die..........with now at least an admittance his opinion has changed from
when he was all in for Russia in 2014.......I salute that, at least,
although generally find both-sidesism wrong .......In war one side is
fighting justly when they are fighting to defend themselves and their
territory.......IT IS INTERNATIONAL LAW........

But it isn't enough to admit you have no opinion about the Donbas situation
in 2014........

On Thu, Mar 23, 2023 at 5:36 PM Hübschräuber via Pynchon-l <
pynchon-l at waste.org> wrote:

> ------- Original Message -------
> Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> schrieb am Mittwoch, 22. März 2023 um
> 10:25:
>
> > The OSCE has NOT reported of "eight years of shelling by the Ukrainians".
>
> Indeed it has not. The OSCE reported eight years of "ceasefire violations"
> by both sides. The Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights
> reported:
>
> "OHCHR estimates the total number of conflict-related casualties in
> Ukraine from 14 April 2014 to 31 December 2021 to be 51,000–54,000:
> 14,200-14,400 killed (at least 3,404 civilians, estimated 4,400 Ukrainian
> forces, and estimated 6,500 members of armed groups), and 37-39,000 injured
> (7,000–9,000 civilians, 13,800–14,200 Ukrainian forces and 15,800-16,200
> members of armed groups)."
>
>
> https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2031%20December%202021%20%28rev%2027%20January%202022%29%20corr%20EN_0.pdf
>
> The numbers of dead and injured decreased significantly through the years.
> There was a notable uptick of "ceasefire violations" in the days before the
> Russian invasion which are not included in the OHCHR statement but have
> been recorded by the OSCE. In any case, interpreting the above as "eight
> years of shelling the Donbas" seems reasonable to me. You stated
> categorically that this was not true but have until now failed to provide
> evidence to support this statement.
>
> > If interested in who's to trust there, you may want to take a look in
> all the reports mentioning who gave them full access and who didn't.
>
> As regards the Donbas, I trust both sides as far as I can throw them. Fog
> of war and all that since 2014.
>
> >
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>