CoL49 - 2nd section of chapter 5...."You're gonna want cause & effect"--GR

Fri Jul 5 03:50:06 UTC 2024

I tried writing something about suicide and man that is a tough one; couldn’t do it.  I do not see Buddhist liberation from desire or illusion,  or any real reckoning with where he is. I see something more like Adam blaming Eve instead of taking responsibility, or as David suggests, a variant of narcissism. But I also think my earlier response lacked compassion, and the problem with that is maybe not seeing that there is some compassion in creating a support group to not be destroyed by the loss of love, but IA seems to be offering only a new addiction, a protective shell  or a cast or bandage that  never gets removed so does not air and heal the wound. 

Here is another Paul Simon song
Love.    By Paul Simon
Cool me
Cool my fever <https://www.definitions.net/definition/fever> high
Hold me when I cry
I need it so much
Makes you want to get down and crawl <https://www.definitions.net/definition/crawl> like a beggar
For its touch
And all the while <https://www.definitions.net/definition/while> it's free as air
Like plants <https://www.definitions.net/definition/plants> the medicine <https://www.definitions.net/definition/medicine> is everywhere

Love
Love
Love

We crave <https://www.definitions.net/definition/crave> it so badly
Makes you want to laugh <https://www.definitions.net/definition/laugh> out loud when you receive <https://www.definitions.net/definition/receive> it
And gobble <https://www.definitions.net/definition/gobble> it like candy

We think <https://www.definitions.net/definition/think> it's easy
Sometimes it's easy
But it's not easy
You're going <https://www.definitions.net/definition/going> to break <https://www.definitions.net/definition/break> down and cry
We're not important
We should <https://www.definitions.net/definition/should> be grateful
And if you're wondering <https://www.definitions.net/definition/wondering> why

Love
Love
Love

The price <https://www.definitions.net/definition/price> that we pay
When evil walks <https://www.definitions.net/definition/walks> the planet
And love is crushed <https://www.definitions.net/definition/crushed> like clay
The master <https://www.definitions.net/definition/master> races, the chosen <https://www.definitions.net/definition/chosen> peoples
The burning <https://www.definitions.net/definition/burning> temples, the weeping <https://www.definitions.net/definition/weeping> cathedrals

> On Jul 4, 2024, at 6:35 PM, Michael Bailey <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> All right, if I don’t deny he’s experienced love - say his love for his
> meaningless job and marriage is genuine enough -
> 
> Then why would that be the thing he renounces?
> 
> That’s the non sequitur.
> 
> With AA, alcohol is the thing that fucked them up.
> Making a big deal out of renouncing alcohol makes sense, because that’s
> what harmed them
> 
> But love isn’t what fucked IA founder up. It’s the thing he lost.
> 
> So is his renunciation more Buddhist (like the self-immolator, news of whom
> inspired him to imitate) in renouncing desire and attachment  - or like
> Simon and Garfunkel, “I am a Rock” “I have no need for friendship ,
> friendship causes pain”?
> 
> Or just non sequitur imho.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:24 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> https://x.com/14JUN1995/status/1808629365338476896/photo/1
>> 
>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 3:01 AM Michael Bailey <
>> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Questions:Why is it love and not capitalism that the founder of IA
>>> believes
>>> has ruined his life?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The plot of his life has included career, advancement, and marriage. All
>>> these things have been bestowed on him and his habits have been formed
>>> around them, but he doesn’t really know how any of them work.
>>> 
>>> Not surprisingly, his response to losing his job and wife and finding the
>>> posthorn is a non sequitur:
>>> 
>>> “Idly, he peeled off a stamp and saw suddenly the image of the muted post
>>> horn, the skin of his hand showing clearly through the watermark. “A
>>> sign,”
>>> he whispered, “is what it is.” If he’d been a religious man he would have
>>> fallen to his knees. As it was, he only declared, with great solemnity:
>>> “My
>>> big mistake was love. From this day I swear to stay off of love: hetero,
>>> homo, bi, dog or cat, car, every kind there is. I will found a society of
>>> isolates, dedicated to this purpose, and this sign, revealed by the same
>>> gasoline that almost destroyed me, will be its emblem.” And he did”
>>> 
>>> - a) there’s a lot about his job but almost nothing about having any
>>> feelings for his wife
>>> 
>>> - b) confronting wife and her new lover actually perks him up
>>> 
>>> - c) so how is his one mistake love?
>>> 
>>> - d) he reads an arbitrary meaning into the muted posthorn, showing the
>>> same lack of understanding with which he used to read the specialized
>>> memos
>>> 
>>> - e) he founds an organization based on a made-up interpretation based on
>>> *nothing*, and in reaction against a feeling of love, when in all of his
>>> words or actions there’s no sign of it
>>> 
>>> - f) leaving unaddressed the only real fly in his life’s ointment: the
>>> computer taking his job, which I guess you could blame on capitalism, but
>>> wouldn’t it make as much sense to blame the computer?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The question arises - is this meant to be a “scherzo” sidelong view of AA?
>>> - like some of the over-the-top satirical exploration around AA a few
>>> years
>>> later in _Infinite Jest_?
>>> - no, not for me anyway: yes, Oedipa does enjoy a drink and no, there’s
>>> not
>>> a lot of condemnation of her for it, but rather the use of brand names and
>>> drink names seems to imply an acceptance of drinking as a social ritual.
>>> - but there’s no denying the “scared-straight” potential of the imagery
>>> around the drunken sailor
>>> - hence I see no sign of attempts to do any kind of a take-down of AA
>>> - I think maybe taking AA principles and applying them to love tickles the
>>> same sort of mordant funny bone as putting mail in a waste can.
>>> 
>>> — what it might be a takedown of, though, is specious “great moments of
>>> insight”
>>> - always reminds me of Kerouac in _Desolation Angels_ where he has the
>>> bogus satori “you can’t fall down a mountain”
>>> - patently untrue
>>> - unimpressive movements to this day grow up around a charismatic leader
>>> with some “great realization” and people retelling the tale
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 6:37 AM J K Van Nort via Pynchon-l <
>>> pynchon-l at waste.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Greetings,
>>>> Sorry this is late.
>>>> Summary:
>>>> Oedipa's conversation continues with the Inamorati Anonymous gentleman.
>>> He
>>>> explains their purpose and also the story of the founder, who
>>> contemplating
>>>> suicide after the loss of his job and marriage has a revelation. The
>>> story
>>>> of how the muted posthorn symbol became a for the group involves a
>>> Yoyodyne
>>>> mid level administrator who loses his job, his wife, and his reason to
>>> live
>>>> and just as he is about to kill himself in the same form as a Buddhist
>>> monk
>>>> protesting Vietnam, he has a revelation that love is the problem. The
>>>> gasoline has soaked a series of letters that he received (presumably)
>>>> through W.A.S.T.E. which wipes the ink to reveal a watermark with the
>>> muted
>>>> posthorn. He forms the IA and uses the muted posthorn as its symbol.
>>>> The Isolate leaves her to go to the bathroom and never returns. She
>>> leaves
>>>> the Greek Way and wanders the city, finding the posthorn symbol
>>> everywhere.
>>>> She finds children dreaming that they are playing together, In a Mexican
>>>> restaurant, she meets Jesus Arrabal, a Mexican anarchist she had met in
>>>> Mazatlan with Pierce. He describes Pierce as the reason he has stayed
>>> with
>>>> anarchy, as Pierce represents everything he despises. He describes a
>>>> miracle as 'another world's intrusion into this one. She continues
>>> through
>>>> the 'infected city' where she sees more examples of the posthorn,
>>> finally
>>>> finding an old drunken sailor with the posthorn tattooed onto his hand.
>>> She
>>>> comforts him, and he asks her to mail a letter to his wife through
>>>> W.A.S.T.E., which she says she doesn't know how to use. He tells her she
>>>> can find a location under the highway. She helps him to bed and imagines
>>>> that he will die by having his cigarette ignite his mattress when he
>>> falls
>>>> asleep.
>>>> 
>>>> Questions:Why is it love and not capitalism that the founder of IA
>>>> believes has ruined his life?Why would a member of the IA be getting
>>> drunk
>>>> in a gay bar?Why does Oedipa feel despair when she realizes that "nobody
>>>> around her has any sexual relevance" to her?How does the founding story
>>> of
>>>> the Isolate at the gay bar compare with the drunken sailor grieving his
>>>> wife? Why is that important?
>>>> 
>>>> In solidarity,
>>>> James
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>> --
>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> --
>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> 
>> 
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l