CoL49 Chapter 4

Sun Jun 16 05:23:38 UTC 2024

There’s a lot in there, that’s for sure.
It’s been said before, you’re both right - but wait, there’s more (-;

- not just American, but human nature
- multiple ways to interpret
- Easter eggs
- intertextual references (Dandelion Wine eg)
- intricate plotting
- callbacks
- links between works in the oeuvre (“yibble” et al)

Does anyone have an authoritative reading?
Do we even desire one?
- narrow it down like the cattle paths in Chicago in AtD? nah, not that much
- broaden it out to mean whatever one feels like? that’s obviously not
right either

That’s what I like about a group read: I usually know what I think, to
begin with, but reading other people’s ideas gives me new ideas. Between
that and the new perspectives from rereading, it refreshes my experience of
the story. So, thanks for that!

On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 3:29 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> Absolutely, and there is NOTHING parochial about Pynchon in his works, imo.
> I think you, David, are
> correct that this--he---is not about "current events"--that's almost too
> obvious to say---and, despite
> Jay Gould in this one, Nixon in GR, NY Trump in Bleeding edge, Ben Franklin
> a contemporary in M & D,
> none of them are about "politics"....but the deep patterns in America, from
> Christers--AtD--through Hofstadter's
> American conspiracy KIND of insights, he's there. Brilliantly...Originally.
> Deeply. I allude to his metaphors and
> shit all the time in discussion groups....
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 2:09 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don’t think there’s any difference between us. Moby Dick is a high
> > American bar to meet. American does not have to mean parochial.
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 11:49 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> If this is a difference between us, I think this and every novel is also
> >> about America....he is an American novelist...
> >> and a world-historical novelist overtly in a couple of the novels...
> >>
> >> He "lets it [America] unfold", with insightful originality in every
> >> book.....
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 11:39 AM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Pynchon doesn’t write about current events or politics. He doesn’t even
> >>> (just barely) write about historic events. His aim is much higher, and
> >>> deeper and abstract and universal.
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 11:08 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I think The Crying is about America, with its recent (mostly)
> historical
> >>>> baggage, at the time it is set.
> >>>>
> >>>> The Trystero goes back in history long before Kennedy's assassination
> >>>> and I
> >>>> see no connection myself.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 8:53 AM J K Van Nort <jkvannort at yahoo.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > "Pierce does not represent JFK. Period."
> >>>> >
> >>>> > While I don't think Pierce represents JFK, I do think the book is a
> >>>> > response to the Kennedy assassination. I don't have the New Frontier
> >>>> view
> >>>> > of JFK as much as the Seymour Hersh, Dark Side of Camelot
> impression.
> >>>> Joe
> >>>> > Kennedy manipulated the mafia, a closer stand-in for the Tristero
> >>>> than the
> >>>> > CIA, and they had many reasons to hate JFK, especially after helping
> >>>> to fix
> >>>> > Illinois and then having RFK as AG going after them full force.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > The speculation of the mob's hand in his assassination has
> significant
> >>>> > support, and I can see them being lured into the job by a CIA who
> also
> >>>> > hated Kennedy. Dulles then chaperoning the Warren Commission further
> >>>> > supports that speculation.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > I also think that the Military Industrial Complex's continued rise
> >>>> deeply
> >>>> > impacted Pynchon's writing CoL49, and if the speculation is true
> that
> >>>> > Kennedy wanted out of Vietnam after his re-election (which I don't
> >>>> > believe), then the MIC would also have it out for him, making their,
> >>>> not
> >>>> > Pierce's connection to Tristero more likely.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > In solidarity,
> >>>> >
> >>>> > James
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>>> > <
> >>>>
> https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Saturday, June 15, 2024, 05:38, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> >
> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Peirce does not represent JFK. Period.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > 2) Because Oedipa cannot understand Pierce's "testament", his
> >>>> meanings and
> >>>> > The Trystero needs understaning. As we read, she suspects some kind
> of
> >>>> > elaborate hidden
> >>>> > plot and The Trystero seems elaborate and mysterious---like good
> >>>> plots do.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 4:36 AM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 4:17 AM Michael Bailey <
> >>>> > > michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
> >>>> > > wrote:
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > > 1) Why does Oedipa connect understanding Tristero to finding
> >>>> Meaning in
> >>>> > > > Pierce's testament?
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > It’s a very good question. In fact, why does she fuck Metz?  He’s
> a
> >>>> > little
> >>>> > > bit of a turn-on, but sex (per se) is not her motivation. From the
> >>>> start,
> >>>> > > it is a battle of wits.  But WHY?  It’s almost as if she’s using
> >>>> her new
> >>>> > > “power” as a tool to dig into the “corrupt” world of REAL Estate!
> >>>> (The
> >>>> > > ONLY “real” wealth).
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Good question!
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Yes!  BUT!  Are any of these “speculations” suggested anywhere in
> >>>> the
> >>>> > text?
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > - what if Pierce didn’t leave enough to cover his debts - like
> that
> >>>> guy
> >>>> > in
> >>>> > > > _A Man in Full_ maybe the whole empire was a house of cards
> >>>> > > > - maybe they are liquidating (selling the stamp collection, eg)
> >>>> > > > - anyway, if that’s the case, maybe she seeks meaning in
> >>>> non-financial
> >>>> > > > terms and follows her liberal arts training to pursue the
> >>>> alternative
> >>>> > > post
> >>>> > > > phenomenon
> >>>> > > > - or, maybe she sees Tristero as a/the wreaker of Pierce’s
> >>>> downfall,
> >>>> > and
> >>>> > > is
> >>>> > > > trying to figure out which of his activities brought on their
> >>>> wrath
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > >  - if Pierce represents JFK - but his shtick is totally
> different
> >>>> - but
> >>>> > > if
> >>>> > > > he somehow does anyway, maybe her efforts are linked to the idea
> >>>> of
> >>>> > > trying
> >>>> > > > to keep the New Frontier vision alive?
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > >
> >>>> > > --
> >>>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>> >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > --
> >>>> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>>
> >>>
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>