CoL49 Chapter 4

[Mark Kohut]

Absolutely, and there is NOTHING parochial about Pynchon in his works, imo.
I think you, David, are
correct that this--he---is not about "current events"--that's almost too
obvious to say---and, despite
Jay Gould in this one, Nixon in GR, NY Trump in Bleeding edge, Ben Franklin
a contemporary in M & D,
none of them are about "politics"....but the deep patterns in America, from
Christers--AtD--through Hofstadter's
American conspiracy KIND of insights, he's there. Brilliantly...Originally.
Deeply. I allude to his metaphors and
shit all the time in discussion groups....

On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 2:09 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don’t think there’s any difference between us. Moby Dick is a high
> American bar to meet. American does not have to mean parochial.
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 11:49 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If this is a difference between us, I think this and every novel is also
>> about America....he is an American novelist...
>> and a world-historical novelist overtly in a couple of the novels...
>>
>> He "lets it [America] unfold", with insightful originality in every
>> book.....
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 11:39 AM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Pynchon doesn’t write about current events or politics. He doesn’t even
>>> (just barely) write about historic events. His aim is much higher, and
>>> deeper and abstract and universal.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 11:08 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think The Crying is about America, with its recent (mostly) historical
>>>> baggage, at the time it is set.
>>>>
>>>> The Trystero goes back in history long before Kennedy's assassination
>>>> and I
>>>> see no connection myself.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 8:53 AM J K Van Nort <jkvannort at yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > "Pierce does not represent JFK. Period."
>>>> >
>>>> > While I don't think Pierce represents JFK, I do think the book is a
>>>> > response to the Kennedy assassination. I don't have the New Frontier
>>>> view
>>>> > of JFK as much as the Seymour Hersh, Dark Side of Camelot impression.
>>>> Joe
>>>> > Kennedy manipulated the mafia, a closer stand-in for the Tristero
>>>> than the
>>>> > CIA, and they had many reasons to hate JFK, especially after helping
>>>> to fix
>>>> > Illinois and then having RFK as AG going after them full force.
>>>> >
>>>> > The speculation of the mob's hand in his assassination has significant
>>>> > support, and I can see them being lured into the job by a CIA who also
>>>> > hated Kennedy. Dulles then chaperoning the Warren Commission further
>>>> > supports that speculation.
>>>> >
>>>> > I also think that the Military Industrial Complex's continued rise
>>>> deeply
>>>> > impacted Pynchon's writing CoL49, and if the speculation is true that
>>>> > Kennedy wanted out of Vietnam after his re-election (which I don't
>>>> > believe), then the MIC would also have it out for him, making their,
>>>> not
>>>> > Pierce's connection to Tristero more likely.
>>>> >
>>>> > In solidarity,
>>>> >
>>>> > James
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>> > <
>>>> https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Saturday, June 15, 2024, 05:38, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Peirce does not represent JFK. Period.
>>>> >
>>>> > 2) Because Oedipa cannot understand Pierce's "testament", his
>>>> meanings and
>>>> > The Trystero needs understaning. As we read, she suspects some kind of
>>>> > elaborate hidden
>>>> > plot and The Trystero seems elaborate and mysterious---like good
>>>> plots do.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 4:36 AM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 4:17 AM Michael Bailey <
>>>> > > michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
>>>> > > wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > > 1) Why does Oedipa connect understanding Tristero to finding
>>>> Meaning in
>>>> > > > Pierce's testament?
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > It’s a very good question. In fact, why does she fuck Metz?  He’s a
>>>> > little
>>>> > > bit of a turn-on, but sex (per se) is not her motivation. From the
>>>> start,
>>>> > > it is a battle of wits.  But WHY?  It’s almost as if she’s using
>>>> her new
>>>> > > “power” as a tool to dig into the “corrupt” world of REAL Estate!
>>>> (The
>>>> > > ONLY “real” wealth).
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Good question!
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Yes!  BUT!  Are any of these “speculations” suggested anywhere in
>>>> the
>>>> > text?
>>>> > >
>>>> > > - what if Pierce didn’t leave enough to cover his debts - like that
>>>> guy
>>>> > in
>>>> > > > _A Man in Full_ maybe the whole empire was a house of cards
>>>> > > > - maybe they are liquidating (selling the stamp collection, eg)
>>>> > > > - anyway, if that’s the case, maybe she seeks meaning in
>>>> non-financial
>>>> > > > terms and follows her liberal arts training to pursue the
>>>> alternative
>>>> > > post
>>>> > > > phenomenon
>>>> > > > - or, maybe she sees Tristero as a/the wreaker of Pierce’s
>>>> downfall,
>>>> > and
>>>> > > is
>>>> > > > trying to figure out which of his activities brought on their
>>>> wrath
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >  - if Pierce represents JFK - but his shtick is totally different
>>>> - but
>>>> > > if
>>>> > > > he somehow does anyway, maybe her efforts are linked to the idea
>>>> of
>>>> > > trying
>>>> > > > to keep the New Frontier vision alive?
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > --
>>>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>>
>>>