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[Mark Kohut]

And we agree basically...this guy minimizes Thomas....

On Tue, Sep 29, 2026 at 2:53 PM Joseph Tracy via Pynchon-l <
pynchon-l at waste.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On Sep 28, 2026, at 11:52 PM, Michael Bailey via Pynchon-l <
> pynchon-l at waste.org> wrote:
> >
> > Joseph wrote:
> >
> > Not so sure. In each novel there are real crimes corresponding to the
> > actual crimes of that time. The repeated Pynchon narrative that
> > uncovering the story behind those crimes, the whodunit and why, leads to
> > unresolvable, un prosecutable forces operating above the law is not the
> > same as " a reality that has already vanished", not the same as
> > inscrutable density of information being the new reality.
> >
> >
> >  *
> > This aspect of BE & IV in particular is a disappointment baked into noir
> - "forget it Jake, it's Chinatown" type of thing
> >  *
> > Or like, Silkwood, right? Real life noir.
> >  *
> > Noir subverts the paradigm that when the truth is exposed, ideally a
> bucket brigade forms to carry it to where it's needed: the press, the
> public, elected representatives, Tinker to Evers to Chance, the cops, the
> prison system...end result crime stopped & evildoers penitent & reformed
> >  *
> > Perhaps there's more to Pynchon's version of noir subversion than just
> saying, nah, that doesn't work here/anymore/against the rich
> Probably so , but is it a deeper insight to call it a reality that has
> already vanished? Is it density of information or straight up criminal
> collusion that hinders change through investigative discovery of truth? For
> Maxine and Doc it is just the size of the crimes and the self protective
> complicity of powerful private and government interests in criminal
> violence that ends any possible accountability. Both have had some success
> in apprehending lawbreakers. Both get very close to who and why, and both
> choose to seek some kind of escape to personal safety.  I would argue that
> while Pynchon sees little hope in change through investigative exposure of
> large scale criminality, he still probes at it in a way that is both very
> serious and very parodic or satiric, knowing that both methods have an
> appeal and cultural impact. While both Maxine and Doc  move to personal
> escape and safety, we know that safety is also an illusion.
>
> >  *VL struggles with that too, inventing Thanatoids to pursue the justice
> otherwise denied?
> Pretty sure P did not invent the notion of Karmic accountability, or
> interaction with the ancestors.
> >  *
> > In BE & IV, it's more like the protagonist finally gets a glimmer of the
> magnitude of societal problems. Rather than charging immediately into a
> suicidal dubious battle, Doc & Maxine take some steps to stabilize their
> own position. Can one blame them?
> Of course I don’t blame them, but I don’t find them as admirable as those,
> like Palestinian journalists and Doctors, or Gary Webb, or Thomas Massie,
> Julian Assange,   Sy Hersch,  or Martin King  who risk their lives and
> careers to speak truth to power. Sometimes hard work and talent and a
> passion for truth or justice will get you an audience and reward and
> sometimes it will get you killed. Millions died fighting fascism rather
> than give in to that future. ST seems like a surreal noirish ride into the
> all too real present where the Banker’s coup succeeded and the police state
> regulalry decides who will live and who will die.
> >  *
> > Looking at crimes was Doc's and Maxine's career choice
> In Maxine’s case we get some insight as to why, same with Frenesi and
> Prairie and Sasha.
> >  *
> > Pynchon chose to be a "creative" (-; so - like Rasselas, on whom he
> wrote a paper at Cornell - he must know everything.
>
> >  *
> > Ergo, insight into society and humor must coexist in his books, along
> with much else as well.
> I totally agree, and that breadth, intensity  and humor  is what first
> drew me in when a friend gave me Vineland.  My sense of disagreeement is
> with the idea that the questions of whodunit and how are just a vehicle for
> entertainment. For me the value of this particular coin has to do with the
> weight and rarity of the material and the balance of engaging storytelling
> and humor…. and on the other face relevant truthfulness, visionary
> accuracy.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>