NP Mein Kampf (was NP another stoopid list ...

[jbor at bigpond.com]

Recent cases of public censorship of (non hard-core pornography) films 
here were the movies 'Ken Park' (2003) and 'In a Glass Cage' and 'The 
Gore Gore Girls' (2005). I know our govt banned David Irving from 
coming here to speak (Italy, Canada and South Africa also, I believe, 
as well as his being banned from the German national archives), though 
I'm not sure whether his books have been banned.

I suspect that some "pornography" is banned in European countries - 
child pornography certainly is.

The call for absolute freedom of speech/expression sounds good in 
theory, but it breaks down in practice. The banning of _Mein Kampf_ in 
Germany is a case in point. And one problem for ioannissevastianos's 
argument is that neither 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion' nor, 
say, David Irving's books, are presented as fiction, and it would take 
an editorial act - an act of of censorship in other words - to ensure 
that it's made "clear" to readers that the texts are in fact 
fictitious. Similarly, the popular allure of 'The Da Vinci Code' is 
also the false claim made by the author that it is based on "historical 
fact".

I'm actually a supporter of freedom of speech, freedom of expression, 
freedom of choice, but I can understand as well the need for limits. 
For example, public statements, performances, art works etc which 
incite racial hatred are illegal here - I would argue rightly so.

Absolute freedom of expression is an indefensible position (e.g. kiddie 
porn, snuff movies, racial vilification etc). It becomes a question of 
what the limits are, how they are set, and who sets them.

Anyway, this maybe of interest:

http://digital.library.upenn.edu/books/banned-books.html

best

On 06/06/2005, at 9:20 PM, François Monti wrote:

> I remember that, a couple of years ago, an association of children 
> protection sued an art gallery who had curated an exhibition of a 
> photographer whose work solely concentrated on photos of prenubile 
> children naked. The association won, the exhibition had to be stopped. 
> It happened in Toulouse or Bordeaux, France.Then again France has a 
> mix record when it comes to freedom of speech.
> I also seem to remember that a couple of person were condemned in the 
> UK for blaspheming Jesus Christ, a couple of years ago. The judge 
> invoked a anti-blasphemy act from the 18th century.
>
> I myself think there should be absolute free-speech, but you shouldn't 
> think that governements or judges do share this point of view in 
> Europe. We censor less than 50 years ago, but we still do.
>
> François
>
> http://www.musiquemachine.com
> http://table-rase.blogspot.com/
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>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cyrus" 
> <ioannissevastianos at yahoo.gr>
> To: <jbor at bigpond.com>; <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 12:28 PM
> Subject: Re: NP Mein Kampf (was NP another stoopid list ...
>
>
>> jbor at bigpond.com wrote:
>>
>>> The issues of censorship and freedom of speech aren't as clear cut 
>>> as the libertarians would have you believe. Books and movies are 
>>> still banned, even in supposedly "progressive" or "liberal" Western 
>>> nations, but moreso obviously under sterner civil jurisdictions. 
>>> Even 'Harry Potter' ends up on the banned list in schools in Utah or 
>>> wherever. And I wonder how comfortable some people would be nowadays 
>>> to allow their children open access to, say, 'The Protocols of the 
>>> Elders of Zion'.
>>
>>
>> Hi, jbor
>>
>> I think the notion of freedom of speech is quite clear. Every idea 
>> should be allowed to circulate, even if it's outright harmful, and 
>> every artist should be allowed freedom of expression, even if his art 
>> may be insulting to certain groups of people. And if one doesn't 
>> agree with what is being said or shown, one has the right to 
>> criticise it publicly. I don't know any instances of 
>> government-banned books or art in Europe in the last 20 years or so 
>> (ok, "Mein Kampf" in Germany is understandable, even ancient Greeks 
>> didn't wan't to hear about their own misfortunes in Epidaurus). If 
>> you do, please share. Certainly there are groups lobbying, trying to 
>> ban this and that, but they fail in courts, as far as I know.
>>
>> And I see no harm in allowing my (future) children open access to 
>> "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", the "Da Vinci Code", or "The 
>> Holy Bible", as long as it's clear to them that they are works of 
>> fiction.
>>
>> Cyrus.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>