IVIV (13) scene one question

[Joseph Tracy]

Been following this thread, after rereading the scene. The whole idea  
of Puck as clownish elf has nothing to do IMO with what he is but  
with Trillium falling for him . He is only Puck in her internal play.  
She's a refrain of Manson's devotees, who see humanity and even  
divinity where there is only a creepy smart, selfish thief, pimp, and  
killer. Puck  is a hardened hired killer working for another contract  
killer. He carries a grudge which is why he killed Indelicato.  So  
Doc clearly and accurately sees a kill or be killed situation. These  
people have connections way high and probably won't stop til they get  
him.  Also Doc knows without question that leaving Puck alive is  
insuring more murder.

I am personally a quaker, though not too good at it, but I accept  
that people have a right to defend themselves and others from  
criminal violence. The scene is bothersome to me because it is an  
illustration of a kind of violence that I can't really condemn and  
can imagine carrying out. It is interesting that Doc is walking away  
from Prussia despite the long term threat he poses. Perhaps this is  
already the beginning of the flight south.

I cannot feel too troubled when those who intend violence are met  
with the same.

On Nov 8, 2009, at 6:51 PM, John Bailey wrote:

> Mark quoted:
>
> "a fury Doc understood would provide the balance he needed to coast
> through this"
>
> I was equally thrown by Doc's need to "coast through this"...
>
> So the balance is required but that balance isn't the ultimate goal -
> that'd be a need to "coast through" the situation. Is keeping cool,
> keeping things smooth, really a great motive for murder? Doc could've
> cuffed Puck without administering the heroin.
>
> Wanting things to play out coolly during a violent confrontation is a
> bit more Dirty Harry than I like.
>
> Then there's justifying your actions by comparing yourself to a
> tradition of cartoon characters...
>
> Which could very well be ironic in this scene. Except cartoon
> characters are treated with some degree of respect in P's novels, and
> of course his own characters have been often noted as excessively
> cartoonish.
>
> Maybe Doc's self-justification makes moral sense in the world of IV,
> but IV's just a cartoony fiction itself so we shouldn't go furiously
> killing baddies and use it as our ethical defence.
>
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:06 AM, Robin Landseadel
> <robinlandseadel at comcast.net> wrote:
>> On Nov 8, 2009, at 7:44 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>>
>>> Could knocking Puck out have been enough to escape from, as often is
>>> enough in other noirs---yet, I think that other P.I.s often get  
>>> too violent
>>> in escaping is another genre staple, anyone?, anyone?
>>
>> Doc left air in the syringe. Puck was killed. Adrian winds up dead  
>> from the
>> wounds inflicted by Doc's gun. Doc is a Badass, the language used  
>> just prior
>> to Doc stomping on Puck makes that abundantly clear:
>>
>>        It took a lot of squirming and muscle strain and semi-
>>        headstands to get even one of the shims to fall out of his  
>> pocket,
>>         but finally Doc worked himself out of the cuffs, creaked  
>> up off
>>        the bed, and had a look atound. There wasn't much to see. The
>>        door was designed not to open from the inside, and there was
>>        nothing to force it with. He pulled the folding chair under  
>> the
>>        overhead light fixture, stood on it, and unscrewed the bulb.
>>        Everything went very dark. By the time he managed to get back
>>        down off the chair, he was in the middle of some kind of
>>        flashback, possibly from that elephant dope they'd given him.
>>        He saw old familiar images, like spirit guides sent to help  
>> him
>>        out, Dagwood and Mr. Dithers, Bugs and Yosemite Sam,
>>        Popeye and Bluto, rotating violently inside intensely  
>> saturated
>>        green and magenta clouds of dust, and he understood for a
>>        second and a half that he belonged to a single and ancient
>>        martial tradition in which resisting authority, subduing hired
>>        guns, defending your old lady's honor all amounted to the same
>>        thing.
>>
>>