Nazi Jews [caution: spoilers]

[Clément Lévy]

I am not so sure that the Basterds have something nazi in their  
methods of warfare: they leave survivors; the scars they print in  
their foreheads are not a way to identify their future victims (as  
was the yellow star) but a mark of shame; they sacrifice themselves  
to achieve their goal: did anybody remark that those resistants are  
in fact real kamikaze? Shoshanna and Marcel seem to die in the  
theater, as well as the three guys who carried bombs in their socks.  
For me, that Tarantino makes films about revenge isn't big news. I  
didn't find it laughable, but his villains are so evil that it's  
almost a pleasure to witness their terrible death. The Louisiane  
scene (with the game scene) is great because we realize that these  
basterds are not very well trained, they fail: they're no nazis!
The comparison with the Einsatzgruppen scene in Come and See (Klimov)  
didn't strike me as very pertinent. They lock people in a barn and  
burn everybody, but it is not a nazi kind of crime. Wasn't there  
something similar in the Calcutta Black Hole incident (to get back to  
something more related to Pynchon)? Neither Hutus nor Tutsis were  
called nazis after the Rwanda genocide. This kind of cruelty might be  
universal.
You're right when you speak of fantasy, Rich, and it goes so far that  
these Basterds are seen in the movie as mythical figures, with the  
Bear Jew and the traitor Ugo Stiglitz...
Clement

Le 17 sept. 09 à 22:34, rich a écrit :

> On 9/17/09, kelber at mindspring.com <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> SPOILERS
>>
>> I honestly can't understand how a fantasy about some Jews killing  
>> Hitler and
>> the high command of the Nazi Party and SS makes those Jews no  
>> different from
>> Nazis
> _______________
> the problem is this country's enthrallment to fantasy--its an easy
> target (everybody hates Hitler and the Nazis--you don't have to think)
> but more than that is a duplication of Nazi-like methods. I'm troubled
> by the fantasy because it brings one back to the reality of actual
> events
>
> .  The character Shoshanna saw her whole family slaughtered by the
>> Nazis.  Would there be something wrong or immoral about her  
>> killing Hitler
>> if she actually got the chance?
> ____________
> on a personal level absolutely not but we're dealing with a plot on
> the level of the Star Trek Nazi episode--again, fantasy
>
>> I'm also not clear if you're offended > because it's Jews doing  
>> the killing.  Why do you expect Israel > specifically to condemn  
>> the movie?  I'm not being rhetorical here.  I really > don't  
>> understand.
>>
> _____________
> I'm not offended just troubled--the film Munich for example showed the
> effects on those Israeli agents tracking down the murderers of the
> Jewish athletes at the Olympic games and the nature of revenge, how
> one becomes no better than the terrorists when you become like them
> (blowing up a building to kill one terrorist knowing there are
> families and children living within. e.g.) If anything, Spielberg got
> that right.
>
>> The Brad Pitt character who heads the commando unit isn't Jewish.   
>> He's a
>> shit-kicking redneck bigot type.  Clearly, when he's talking about  
>> Nazis,
>> we're meant to plug in a different N word.  The film isn't a  
>> Jewish revenge
>> fantasy so much as it's a send-up of American racism, IMO.  The
>> guessing-game sequence where the Nazi is trying to guess "King  
>> Kong," but
>> thinks the real answer might be "the history of the American  
>> Negro," was a
>> brilliant scene.  Scary, witty and full of subtext about the  
>> connections
>> between Nazism and American racism.  It reminded me of the  
>> propaganda film
>> sequence in GR.
> ___________
> I doubt many viewers came away with that notion. I could be wrong but
> I don't have much faith in the avg moviegoer to get those subtle
> nudges. But I agree that was one of the better scenes in the film
>>
>> Outside of Pulp Fiction, I've never been interested in any of QT's  
>> movies.
>> Most of them look pretty crappy.  And by all accounts, he's an  
>> arrogant
>> fuck.  But unless something really great comes out in the next  
>> couple of
>> months (The Road?), IB's in position to do well at the Oscars.  I  
>> don't have
>> a problem with that.
> __________
> Looking fwd to seeing the Road; so far In the Loop is the best film
> I've seen this yr (I don't think I can name many more sadly)
>
>>
>> Laura
>>
>> PS- Personally, I'm a lot more offended by the thought of Jews  
>> like Mickey
>> who admire Nazis.
> __________
> absolutely. it just struck me that I found another Wolfmann-type
> character so soon after reading IV. Of course, there is that fetish
> among some readers in Israel for the so-called Stalag SS and S&M
> bondage stories (Holocaust & Pornography in Israel--who woulda thought
> shit like this would exist)
> http://www.stalags.com/
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com>
>>
>>>
>>> there is a bit of difference--Mickey and Bernstein are Jews who
>>> somehow inexplicably identify with National Socialism (remember  
>>> those
>>> groups of men waiting in camps for the return of
>>> Blicero--inexplicable)
>>> the IB Jews (Americans) are committing war crimes in the movie--they
>>> are behaving like any other individual in history that has committed
>>> such crimes.
>>> That they replicate in detail some of the same acts of cruelty on
>>> German soldiers that the Jews (and others) were subject to during  
>>> the
>>> war doesn't make me feel any less appalled, even if it is only a
>>> movie--in that sense they are Nazis. No one seems to have a problem
>>> with that--no condemnations from the US Army, in Israel, even in
>>> Germany.
>>> QT if he had any talent would've put these GIs in Vietnam committing
>>> these crimes--change the focus just a tiny bit--i see no
>>> difference--mass murder is mass murder tho all these jackoffs in tis
>>> country, critics and other blowhards would see the difference, those
>>> cheering for their heroes.
>>>
>>> rich
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/17/09, Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:03 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hard not to bring up Inglourious Basterds, which some (not me)  
>>>>> have
>>>>> decried as portraying Jews behaving like Nazis.
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious as to what anyone who's seen it might have to say  
>>>> about it
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>
>>