V-2nd Dopplegangers

[Ian Livingston]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68zccrskOqQ

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 7:17 PM, rich wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> What Pynchon is talking about is not a particular conflict, but a deeper
>>> pattern. He is not saying the scenes in SW Africa is "about' Vietnam, or
>>> about the holocaust, but that the essential character of the conflict,
>>> the
>>> net effect of the conflict is not a narrow bit of  warfare between
>>> nations
>>> but the destruction of a culture and a way of being. The dragons/ gators/
>>> grendel man beasts being slain  are circular forces of nature and
>>> psychologically or mythically the ancient worldview sees them as eternal,
>>> and wisdom as being in harmonic or cooperative relation to them, where
>>> the
>>> "modern" logical  notion is that they are materials to be used ,
>>> colonized,
>>> analyzed and shaped to human will. But for some reason persuasion is
>>> never
>>> enough. First the "primitive" mind must be destroyed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Somehow whenever those in charge of the war machine give up on the
>>> doctrine
>>> of winning hearts and minds through high explosives, quietly leave and
>>> stop
>>> demonizing  the "primitive" Afghan, Communist, Native .... those people
>>>  stop being the the epicenter of evil. Then , rather than look in the
>>> mirror
>>> we relocate the cause of he world's problems to a new place where bombs
>>> can
>>> be dropped.
>>
>> ____________
>> I get yr (and Pynchon's point) about exploitation and outright murder
>> of "primitives" so-called but that argument or explanation can only so
>> far.
>> without forgetting the brutalities of modern expansionist countries
>> let's not overemphasize how integrated and united these "primitives"
>> are/were. I think Pynchon gets all hung up on his romantics at times,
>> particularly w/r/t to native americans. that was a strong vibe in the
>> 60s in leftist circles for sure.
>> so yes I lament wounded knee and as much as I do my lai but I can't
>> say ultimately that some huge and beautiful perfect society was laid
>> waste. I lament the loss of loved ones, familes, individuals, not
>> societies
>>
>> and I do hope alice's son gets back home safe
>>
>> rich
>
> Well I hope alice/Terrance's son and every soldier decides to lay down their
> weapons and leave Afghanistan to the Afghans and comes home to work for
> Democracy in the U.S. Leave Afghanistan to the Afghans and  to those who go
> in peace and friendship to build schools, hospitals, and legal  non
> exploitive businesses. I have been around awhile and I don't think Pynchon
> projects romantic perfection on pre industrial and tribal peoples. But in my
> opinion the value and beauty of these peoples is not just their individual
> lives but their collective cultures.  All societies  change and adapt , but
> there are ways to change without  violence , degradation and extermination.
>  People talk as though OK , sad about the natives but look what a great
> country we have built.   My reaction is much like yours. I can't see some
> huge beautiful perfect society. I see an ocean of cars, malls, pizza joints,
> more cars, parking lots,  hamburger stands, ugly buildings, pretty
> buildings, roads, lots of burning, lots of heat, entire cities lt up all
> night every night, constant pointless wars, lots of food from far away,
> garages full of shit,  and overweight  unhappy people. Did I mention how man
> cars there are?
>
>



-- 
"liber enim librum aperit."