V-2nd Dopplegangers

[Joseph Tracy]

Thanks for that. Bruce Cockburn is one of my favorites.  It's getting  
harder and harder to call it Democracy, but hey call it that because  
it makes it easier to steal what is left to plunder.
On Aug 20, 2010, at 3:40 PM, Ian Livingston wrote:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68zccrskOqQ
>
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>  
> wrote:
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 7:17 PM, rich wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>  
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What Pynchon is talking about is not a particular conflict, but  
>>>> a deeper
>>>> pattern. He is not saying the scenes in SW Africa is "about'  
>>>> Vietnam, or
>>>> about the holocaust, but that the essential character of the  
>>>> conflict,
>>>> the
>>>> net effect of the conflict is not a narrow bit of  warfare between
>>>> nations
>>>> but the destruction of a culture and a way of being. The  
>>>> dragons/ gators/
>>>> grendel man beasts being slain  are circular forces of nature and
>>>> psychologically or mythically the ancient worldview sees them as  
>>>> eternal,
>>>> and wisdom as being in harmonic or cooperative relation to them,  
>>>> where
>>>> the
>>>> "modern" logical  notion is that they are materials to be used ,
>>>> colonized,
>>>> analyzed and shaped to human will. But for some reason  
>>>> persuasion is
>>>> never
>>>> enough. First the "primitive" mind must be destroyed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Somehow whenever those in charge of the war machine give up on the
>>>> doctrine
>>>> of winning hearts and minds through high explosives, quietly  
>>>> leave and
>>>> stop
>>>> demonizing  the "primitive" Afghan, Communist, Native .... those  
>>>> people
>>>>  stop being the the epicenter of evil. Then , rather than look  
>>>> in the
>>>> mirror
>>>> we relocate the cause of he world's problems to a new place  
>>>> where bombs
>>>> can
>>>> be dropped.
>>>
>>> ____________
>>> I get yr (and Pynchon's point) about exploitation and outright  
>>> murder
>>> of "primitives" so-called but that argument or explanation can  
>>> only so
>>> far.
>>> without forgetting the brutalities of modern expansionist countries
>>> let's not overemphasize how integrated and united these "primitives"
>>> are/were. I think Pynchon gets all hung up on his romantics at  
>>> times,
>>> particularly w/r/t to native americans. that was a strong vibe in  
>>> the
>>> 60s in leftist circles for sure.
>>> so yes I lament wounded knee and as much as I do my lai but I can't
>>> say ultimately that some huge and beautiful perfect society was laid
>>> waste. I lament the loss of loved ones, familes, individuals, not
>>> societies
>>>
>>> and I do hope alice's son gets back home safe
>>>
>>> rich
>>
>> Well I hope alice/Terrance's son and every soldier decides to lay  
>> down their
>> weapons and leave Afghanistan to the Afghans and comes home to  
>> work for
>> Democracy in the U.S. Leave Afghanistan to the Afghans and  to  
>> those who go
>> in peace and friendship to build schools, hospitals, and legal  non
>> exploitive businesses. I have been around awhile and I don't think  
>> Pynchon
>> projects romantic perfection on pre industrial and tribal peoples.  
>> But in my
>> opinion the value and beauty of these peoples is not just their  
>> individual
>> lives but their collective cultures.  All societies  change and  
>> adapt , but
>> there are ways to change without  violence , degradation and  
>> extermination.
>>  People talk as though OK , sad about the natives but look what a  
>> great
>> country we have built.   My reaction is much like yours. I can't  
>> see some
>> huge beautiful perfect society. I see an ocean of cars, malls,  
>> pizza joints,
>> more cars, parking lots,  hamburger stands, ugly buildings, pretty
>> buildings, roads, lots of burning, lots of heat, entire cities lt  
>> up all
>> night every night, constant pointless wars, lots of food from far  
>> away,
>> garages full of shit,  and overweight  unhappy people. Did I  
>> mention how man
>> cars there are?
>>
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> "liber enim librum aperit."