Horst-Maxine-Windust

[alice malice]

So, yes, it's in the air we breath, in the Earth we walk on, and hus
unavoidable, but to cast Horst in with the high tech science kids who
leverage the planet, guys like Ice, is like confusing Zoyd with Brock.

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014, alice malice <alicewmalice at gmail.com> wrote:

> Horst does not represent, symbolize, the use of speculative financial
> capital in late capitalism. In fact, he is done in by late capital,
> by post-Fordism just like Detroit.  That's why he comes to nyc. And They,
> whoever They are, and it doesn't much matter, and we can never know and
> that's the point, almost bury him in the rubble. He survives, but he has no
> office, no work, no skill or late capitalism.
>
> On Monday, February 24, 2014, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Regarding late capitalism, who can avoid being a part of it?  Do you
> boycott late capitalist goods?  Should Horst become a Buddhist monk?  It is
> the air we cannot avoid breathing.
>
> On Monday, February 24, 2014, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> In this instance, I am just quoting You on "bad TV"....
> please look up the meaning of
> "late capitalism" from any of the creators and users of the phrase, which
> TRP uses
> a couple--three times in Bleeding Edge...NOTHING GOOD about it (unless you
> are one
> of the heavy accumulators of capital).
>
> Money and Shit in BE flows directly from it in GR and ultimately
> (probably) Norman O. Brown,
> one of our shared favorites......do you NOT think money, excess amounts
> of, money not worked for
> is one of TRP's 'bad',  i.e. unpositive, i.e. negative, deeply satirized
> aspects of his historical vision?
>
> If you think I am too simplistic, know that I will always believe that TRP
> and other great writers
> will have a vision expressed in their books. The depth, coherence,
> insights of that vision are
> part of what make him or her great....THAT is what I mean when I sometimes
> use "bad" and "good".
>
> We readers have to judge from life and the work where the author's vision
> lies....
>
> In this example, I think I adumbrated, from the text, a decently complex
> character in Horst from
> BLEEDING EDGE....
>
> I still judge that TRP sees him, as we read the pages, as NO, overall, a
> symbolic embodiment
> of positive qualities----Alice started this thread with that word, I
> believe, and by saying he felt Horst was....."positive',
> that TRP's sympathies lie with him....He ain't even close to Embodying
> Cyprian's values, nor even a
> Traverses, nor Yashmeen's nor Maxine's.....who IS largely sympathetic in
> Bleeding Edge (I think).
>
> I want to thank you for steadily challenging me on my oversimplifications.
> It has made me think better, I think,
> and see P's values better---one of which is the richness of
> ambiguity.......
>
> But another is the clarity of his Swiftian excoriation....Vibe ain't too
> complex (but we knew that about many of
> TRP's characters) ....but TRP's vision is...i.e. complex yet visionarily
> "moral"...
>
>
>   On Monday, February 24, 2014 12:47 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>  Mark,
>
> Whenever you say that something (TV, late capitalism, etc.) in TRP's
> novels are "bad," and some other thing "good," you suck all depth away from
> understanding the depths of the dynamics being portrayed.  You don't seem
> to be able to get beyond these black lines & white spaces of a coloring
> book.  Don't be so eager for simplicities.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Monday, February 24, 2014, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, Ice resembles Vibe. I just threw him in to pile up the ways making
> money are seen
> in TRP's work. In this book of "late capitalism", money is deep shit, is
> THE major problem,
> it gets one man killed (
>
>
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