And NOWHERE is Pynchon mentioned!

[Mark Kohut]

Paradise Lost....only more lyrical....as if Shakespeare rewrote
Milton. (OK, over the top...I'm stopping now)...but you

see the point?

On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 5:38 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've recently come to think that GR is closer to poetry than any other
> literary form. Like most poetry it's a marriage of ideas and
> sensation, is very visceral and bodily, can be hugely abstract but is
> rarely just that. Poetry isn't typically great at "character" but
> character itself is a literary device usually associated with a
> particular kind of novel-writing that privileges individualism and
> psychological integrity.
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Paul,
>>
>> For most of these kinds of 'metaphysical' 'ultimate' even simply
>> text-specific penultimate questions, I largely agree
>> with what Morris just sent. (and I think his first sentence is superb).
>>
>> Where he and I have differed and where I still do is when he says
>> nothing (at all) in the book is ever "answered' finally.
>> I say some things are...that is, by the author thru his vision.
>>
>> And if I have misrepresented Morris, he will let us know.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Thanks, Mark.
>>>
>>> Here's a hint.  The desire and hope for control through technology.  Is this
>>> desire ever met? Can it be met? Does anyone see the answer?
>>>
>>> Can THEY be vanquished? Why not? Does it matter?
>>>
>>> Are any of the multitudinous ideas of the book of any real, true, use to
>>> anyone, when all is said and done?
>>>
>>> Does anyone find meaning in life? Does anyone try?
>>>
>>> Stuff like that.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Paul,
>>>>
>>>> A pretty massive project, no? I can't do it.
>>>>
>>>> But what I mean is stuff like this: the riff on charisma (in the
>>>> post-war era) for example.  Right from Max Weber.
>>>>
>>>> The bits of anarchism as a value and something that may be a branch of
>>>> Buddhism sprinkled throughout.
>>>>
>>>> the Rilke.
>>>>
>>>> even simply the way he uses a Crystal Palace....with its doubled
>>>> allusion to the great Exhibiit....
>>>>
>>>> see how other novelists just write it straight, no layering of erudition.
>>>>
>>>> so much more...
>>>>
>>>> mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > I'm still curious in which sense is, say, GR a novel of ideas? Of course
>>>> > it
>>>> > is full of many felicitously presented abstruse and difficult thoughts,
>>>> > but,
>>>> > what I'd really like to see discussed are its ideas in the sense of
>>>> > opinions, hopes, or beliefs. Could someone  develop a list of these, and
>>>> > say
>>>> > whether they are, in the course of the novel, sought after, attained,
>>>> > rejected, or given up as hopeless.  Does Slothrop's quest, for example,
>>>> > qualify as one of these?
>>>> >
>>>> > I need to be enlighten as much as Tyrone.
>>>> >
>>>> > P
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> What you said, Peter (and well). It's hard to cut through the
>>>> >> accumulated
>>>> >> undergrowth of
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "Pynchon books are status tokens for pretentious hipsters with
>>>> >> post-horn
>>>> >> tattoos who never actually get through anything but CoL49"
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "Pynchon is the perfect starting point for another look at those wild &
>>>> >> wacky Sixties, [because I, the litchat writer, never got through
>>>> >> anything
>>>> >> but CoL49 and a review of Vineland]"
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "Pynchon is funny names, pop-culture references, stylistic acrobatics,
>>>> >> kinky sex, and a Britannica + Google's worth of obscure historical and
>>>> >> scientific allusions"
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "Pynchon holds the Salinger Chair of Reclusive Authorship, so he's
>>>> >> weird
>>>> >> from the jump because he's never sat down with Charlie Rose or been
>>>> >> photographed birding with Jonathan Franzen"
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Peter M. Fitzpatrick
>>>> >> <petopoet at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Here is my two cents.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>      I love to read Pynchon because of his absolute bravery and
>>>> >>> uninhibited imagination. His "ideas" are never lifeless, neutral, or
>>>> >>> abstract, but embodied, political, and provocative. He takes chances
>>>> >>> that
>>>> >>> remind me a great deal of James Joyce in Finnegans Wake. I don't think
>>>> >>> Joyce
>>>> >>> was particularly concerned with the hoi polloi or popularity and
>>>> >>> neither he
>>>> >>> or Pynchon will EVER be found among the books sold in the big box
>>>> >>> stores
>>>> >>> like Target, WalMart, Menards, etc. (this is an American phenomenon,
>>>> >>> where
>>>> >>> the likes of Cussler, Grisham, Patterson, etc, are found in the far
>>>> >>> reaches
>>>> >>> of almost every mass-market shelf space available, with one or two
>>>> >>> copies of
>>>> >>> each author present, changing with each new release.)
>>>> >>>       There is room for this kind of literature,of course, but there
>>>> >>> are
>>>> >>> those of us who demand a more inventive and boundary-testing fare.
>>>> >>> Pynchon
>>>> >>> does manage to ascend into pure lyrical poetry that almost demands
>>>> >>> aural
>>>> >>> interpretation - I do enjoy listening to an audio version of "Against
>>>> >>> the
>>>> >>> Day". Finnegans Wake is also best read aloud and listened to. These
>>>> >>> are
>>>> >>> poetic voices and are suitable for analysis of their poetics.  Much
>>>> >>> like
>>>> >>> Bakhtin devoted his life to analyzing the poetics of Dostoyevski,
>>>> >>> there will
>>>> >>> be scholars devoted to studying both Joyce and Pynchon. Yes, some of
>>>> >>> this
>>>> >>> smacks of the academic machinery that produces English department
>>>> >>> secondary
>>>> >>> source reductions that misinterpret and misconstrue. But that is the
>>>> >>> nature
>>>> >>> of interpretation. It is polyvalent and polyphonic (ala' Bakhtin) by
>>>> >>> rights.
>>>> >>> There is a reason such books attract scholastic attention.
>>>> >>>       They are ideas, voices, conceptions; "Weltanschauungs" in short.
>>>> >>> Simultaneously political, historical, and philosophical, I think we
>>>> >>> intuitively characterize them as novels of Ideas because they last
>>>> >>> longer
>>>> >>> than the commercial ones, thereby resembling Plato's World of Forms,
>>>> >>> or
>>>> >>> Ideals. Not quite eternal, no, but of more lasting value than say, a
>>>> >>> Janet
>>>> >>> Evanovich # 55,  ( I have read one or two of hers, by the way.)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>    -Pete
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 4:49 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> If inclusion on course syllabuses is indicative of the respect
>>>> >>>> teachers
>>>> >>>> have for an author, than our man P is respected in the academy. His
>>>> >>>> works
>>>> >>>> are taught at all the tier one Colleges and highest ranked
>>>> >>>> Universities in
>>>> >>>> the US, at State Universities and Colleges,  to humanities and
>>>> >>>> non-humanities students.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I'm glad there are some out there who respect our guy.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> P
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>
>>>
>> -
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