M&D preambulatory profferings

Tue Jan 6 06:28:04 CST 2015

Echoed via the overarching narrator in his 'The Times are as impossible to
calculate as, etc."

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 7:24 AM, alice malice <alicewmalice at gmail.com> wrote:
> In this, Pynchon resembles Michelangelo, whose art depicts the cusp,
> the moment of crisis. What will unfold from this budding encounter, be
> it God with his finger reaching out to Adam, Moses with his tablets,
> David with his sling. In Michelangelo we have, as Nabokov explains in
> his lectures on the contrast between fiction and other art forms, such
> as painting or sculpture,  the entire work before us to peruse,
> working our eyes around and about, but with pages and pages, so many
> looping back, palimpsesting, subverting all we thought fixed and
> certain, the modern or postmodern fiction is constantly undermining
> certitude of what happened after the crisis, after the times they are
> a changing, with possibilities of what might have been, with fables
> and narratives that pluralize and pull the margins in on the binding
> books of history.
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 6:14 AM, Elisabeth Romberg <eromberg at mac.com> wrote:
>> Yes, the change in paradigm, if that's how you say it. His books seems to
>> take place on The Cusp of when times are a-changing?
>>
>> 6. jan. 2015 kl. 04.26 skrev Johnny Marr <marrja at gmail.com>:
>>
>> I think the broad unifying theme of Pynchon's work is American pioneerism.
>> Whether M&D charting the New World, the terrifying onset of the atomic age
>> in GR, the youth subculture of IV or the cybernet startups of BE, Pynchon is
>> fascinated with American life on the frontier of technological and cultural
>> changes.
>>
>> On Monday, January 5, 2015, Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Um - it's  a fine call but I'll go with Laura about M&D being  "more
>>> American."   The Colonists did not become Americans starting in July of 1776
>>> or in 1775 (Lex & Concord), but about a bit over a decade prior to that.
>>> (And I'd qualify that to say they became more Pennsylvanians or Marylanders
>>> or Virginians than "Americans"  -  as we think of the term.)   And it
>>> depends on what you mean by "American" -  the literal name or the
>>> distinctive culture?
>>>
>>> It's often argued that it was during and just following the French and
>>> Indian War (7-Years War) that the interests and identification of the
>>> British colonists became more and more the interests of the "Americans" in
>>> nature.  The F&I War was between 1754 and 1763 and it set off several
>>> political issues including protection from Indians and  the anti-tax
>>> movement which united enough of the colonists to wage a successful war
>>> against the Brits.
>>>
>>> Some results of the F&I / 7-Years War:
>>>
>>> 1.  A LOT more French Catholics fell under British rule further
>>> internationalizing the colonists - and there were already a considerable
>>> number of Dutch in New York and Scots-Irish in Pennsylvania.
>>>
>>> 2.  The territories ("frontier") expanded far west beyond the Appalachian
>>> and Allegheny Mountains which may have been British in name,  but new
>>> settlers from the colonies and Canada certainly developed their own
>>> socio-cultural-economic base.  The idea of the "frontier" (and boundaries)
>>> is certainly important.
>>>
>>> 3.  The Natives in the West and elsewhere, some allies of the  French some
>>> of the Brits/colonists, lost out tremendously in this expansion.  The Native
>>> tribes supposedly "gained" the Indian Reserve west of the Appalachian and
>>> Allegheny Mountains  (Ohio Valley and Great Lakes areas),  but serious
>>> Indian fighting continued in a large area.  And more and more settlers left
>>> the actual Colonies to settle in the West.
>>>
>>> 4.  To say nothing of the Brits gaining Florida from Spain - (How British
>>> do you think those folks were?)
>>>
>>> 3.  The war cost a LOT of money and the Brits thought the Colonists should
>>> pay for it - hence the origins of the American Revolution -
>>>
>>> (For more on the above see Fred Anderson's "The War that Made America: A
>>> Short History of the French and Indian War."  (This is a shorter version of
>>> his pretty definitive work - "Crucible of War."  - these are very good books
>>> but they are not "like a novel" in any way - they're history text-type
>>> books.)
>>>
>>> 4. The French and Indian War ended the same year Mason & Dixon showed up
>>> in Philadelphia and it was into the area of this new frontier that they
>>> surveyed.
>>>
>>> **** A considerable amount of this is included in M&D.  French Jesuits,
>>> Natives, surveying, etc.  But it's not the thrust, I don't think -  just
>>> background.
>>>
>>> Later, the American connection includes the Mason & Dixon line and the
>>> issue of slavery.  This is what most Americans who know anything about the
>>> country's history think of when they consider the line.
>>>
>>> Way too much info - sorry - I got into my thing -
>>> Bekah
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Jan 4, 2015, at 7:12 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > LK > about two Brits making their way across an American landscape when
>>> > it was still ostensibly British. In a way, it's about the moment when the
>>> > British handed over the baton of colonialism to the Americans.
>>> >
>>> > I wonder if "more American" or "less American" are useful measures at
>>> > all, and especially for M&D. The people in the Atlantic colonies of the
>>> > 1750s Americans very definitely considered themselves British. As with
>>> > speciation in biology, the "separation" is incremental, and most of its
>>> > meaning is projected retrospectively.
>>> >
>>> > We see the early days of that retrospect, but inevitably our own sense
>>> > of "British" and "American" are freighted with two additional centuries of
>>> > divergence the characters in M&D hadn't known.
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 1:57 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>> > After the disappointment with Vineland (which has since grown in my
>>> > esteem), I was thrilled to read M&D - back to the lush language and deeper
>>> > themes of his earlier books. But all those Caps and ampersands are
>>> > off-putting to any reader, but especially to (let's face it)us stupid
>>> > Americans, who are rarely fluent in a second language (guilty!). The text is
>>> > as off-putting as Chaucer, at first glance - fodder for a college seminar,
>>> > but not, perhaps the book you grab on the way out the door to read on the
>>> > subway. Much as I enjoyed the book, this group read is only my second
>>> > go-round. Looking forward to it.
>>> >
>>> > Is it more uniquely American than his other works? Hardly (see stupid
>>> > American reference above). Yes, Mason & Dixon immediately equals the
>>> > Mason-Dixon line in the American mind. My first thought on seeing the title
>>> > was that it was going to be a novel about the Civil War. And of course, that
>>> > looms over the whole book, which is very much about borders as instruments
>>> > of racism and colonialism. But it's about two Brits making their way across
>>> > an American landscape when it was still ostensibly British. In a way, it's
>>> > about the moment when the British handed over the baton of colonialism to
>>> > the Americans. The line at the time it was drawn was purely a British bit of
>>> > business. Most Americans are surprised that it's between Pennsylvania and
>>> > Maryland, assuming that it's somehow much farther down south.
>>> >
>>> > Mark, you're a Pennsylvanian? Does crossing the border into Maryland
>>> > have any particular significance for you? I'm guessing not much.
>>> >
>>> > Mason & Dixon is about the significance of a line, just as V is about
>>> > the convergence of two lines, and Gravity's Rainbow is about the parabola.
>>> > Pynchon loves geometry. He may have been attracted to the story because of
>>> > the line. But in finishing it when he did, after becoming a husband and
>>> > father, it became something else - a novel of family and friendship -
>>> > something he was grasping at in Vineland, but perfected here. Between
>>> > geometry, racism, colonialism and affection - don't think there's anything
>>> > uniquely American in M&D. Vineland, ATD and IV are all more American, in my
>>> > opinion.
>>> >
>>> > Laura
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > >From: John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>>> > >Sent: Jan 4, 2015 5:49 AM
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > >I'd love to hear some words from those who already hold this book
>>> > >close to their hearts. There are a lot of veteran P-listers who put
>>> > >the novel near (even higher than!) Gravity's Rainbow in that friendly
>>> > >fascist framework we call Favourites.
>>> > >
>>> > >Me, I've never dig-dug the book the way I dig-do V. or GR or VL or BE
>>> > >but I've always put that down to personal experience or font-size or
>>> > >perhaps cultural materialism.
>>> > >
>>> > >But mostly I've put it down to the fact that I've never been to the US
>>> > >(outside of a TV or cinema screen). I have no deep, internalised,
>>> > >situated knowledge of America and the shouted and whispered
>>> > >conversation it has been having with its divided selves for so many
>>> > >centuries. Some other non-US readers here have professed their
>>> > >appreciation of the book so I'm not claiming this is an American-only
>>> > >novel.
>>> > >
>>> > >STILL: I would really love to hear people throw out a few lines
>>> > >describing what this Pynchon novel is. I want to hear love songs to
>>> > >the thing, though I feel my ear is tinny and poorly tuned. Ring true!
>>> > >-
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -
>>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>> >
>>>
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>
>>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l