M&D preambulatory profferings

Tue Jan 6 08:01:58 CST 2015

Things That Can Happen in European Politics.

"It's changing out from under me. Oh, dodgy -- very dodgy."

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 7:28 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> Echoed via the overarching narrator in his 'The Times are as impossible to
> calculate as, etc."
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 7:24 AM, alice malice <alicewmalice at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > In this, Pynchon resembles Michelangelo, whose art depicts the cusp,
> > the moment of crisis. What will unfold from this budding encounter, be
> > it God with his finger reaching out to Adam, Moses with his tablets,
> > David with his sling. In Michelangelo we have, as Nabokov explains in
> > his lectures on the contrast between fiction and other art forms, such
> > as painting or sculpture,  the entire work before us to peruse,
> > working our eyes around and about, but with pages and pages, so many
> > looping back, palimpsesting, subverting all we thought fixed and
> > certain, the modern or postmodern fiction is constantly undermining
> > certitude of what happened after the crisis, after the times they are
> > a changing, with possibilities of what might have been, with fables
> > and narratives that pluralize and pull the margins in on the binding
> > books of history.
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 6:14 AM, Elisabeth Romberg <eromberg at mac.com>
> wrote:
> >> Yes, the change in paradigm, if that's how you say it. His books seems
> to
> >> take place on The Cusp of when times are a-changing?
> >>
> >> 6. jan. 2015 kl. 04.26 skrev Johnny Marr <marrja at gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> I think the broad unifying theme of Pynchon's work is American
> pioneerism.
> >> Whether M&D charting the New World, the terrifying onset of the atomic
> age
> >> in GR, the youth subculture of IV or the cybernet startups of BE,
> Pynchon is
> >> fascinated with American life on the frontier of technological and
> cultural
> >> changes.
> >>
> >> On Monday, January 5, 2015, Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Um - it's  a fine call but I'll go with Laura about M&D being  "more
> >>> American."   The Colonists did not become Americans starting in July
> of 1776
> >>> or in 1775 (Lex & Concord), but about a bit over a decade prior to
> that.
> >>> (And I'd qualify that to say they became more Pennsylvanians or
> Marylanders
> >>> or Virginians than "Americans"  -  as we think of the term.)   And it
> >>> depends on what you mean by "American" -  the literal name or the
> >>> distinctive culture?
> >>>
> >>> It's often argued that it was during and just following the French and
> >>> Indian War (7-Years War) that the interests and identification of the
> >>> British colonists became more and more the interests of the
> "Americans" in
> >>> nature.  The F&I War was between 1754 and 1763 and it set off several
> >>> political issues including protection from Indians and  the anti-tax
> >>> movement which united enough of the colonists to wage a successful war
> >>> against the Brits.
> >>>
> >>> Some results of the F&I / 7-Years War:
> >>>
> >>> 1.  A LOT more French Catholics fell under British rule further
> >>> internationalizing the colonists - and there were already a
> considerable
> >>> number of Dutch in New York and Scots-Irish in Pennsylvania.
> >>>
> >>> 2.  The territories ("frontier") expanded far west beyond the
> Appalachian
> >>> and Allegheny Mountains which may have been British in name,  but new
> >>> settlers from the colonies and Canada certainly developed their own
> >>> socio-cultural-economic base.  The idea of the "frontier" (and
> boundaries)
> >>> is certainly important.
> >>>
> >>> 3.  The Natives in the West and elsewhere, some allies of the  French
> some
> >>> of the Brits/colonists, lost out tremendously in this expansion.  The
> Native
> >>> tribes supposedly "gained" the Indian Reserve west of the Appalachian
> and
> >>> Allegheny Mountains  (Ohio Valley and Great Lakes areas),  but serious
> >>> Indian fighting continued in a large area.  And more and more settlers
> left
> >>> the actual Colonies to settle in the West.
> >>>
> >>> 4.  To say nothing of the Brits gaining Florida from Spain - (How
> British
> >>> do you think those folks were?)
> >>>
> >>> 3.  The war cost a LOT of money and the Brits thought the Colonists
> should
> >>> pay for it - hence the origins of the American Revolution -
> >>>
> >>> (For more on the above see Fred Anderson's "The War that Made America:
> A
> >>> Short History of the French and Indian War."  (This is a shorter
> version of
> >>> his pretty definitive work - "Crucible of War."  - these are very good
> books
> >>> but they are not "like a novel" in any way - they're history text-type
> >>> books.)
> >>>
> >>> 4. The French and Indian War ended the same year Mason & Dixon showed
> up
> >>> in Philadelphia and it was into the area of this new frontier that they
> >>> surveyed.
> >>>
> >>> **** A considerable amount of this is included in M&D.  French Jesuits,
> >>> Natives, surveying, etc.  But it's not the thrust, I don't think -
> just
> >>> background.
> >>>
> >>> Later, the American connection includes the Mason & Dixon line and the
> >>> issue of slavery.  This is what most Americans who know anything about
> the
> >>> country's history think of when they consider the line.
> >>>
> >>> Way too much info - sorry - I got into my thing -
> >>> Bekah
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > On Jan 4, 2015, at 7:12 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > LK > about two Brits making their way across an American landscape
> when
> >>> > it was still ostensibly British. In a way, it's about the moment
> when the
> >>> > British handed over the baton of colonialism to the Americans.
> >>> >
> >>> > I wonder if "more American" or "less American" are useful measures at
> >>> > all, and especially for M&D. The people in the Atlantic colonies of
> the
> >>> > 1750s Americans very definitely considered themselves British. As
> with
> >>> > speciation in biology, the "separation" is incremental, and most of
> its
> >>> > meaning is projected retrospectively.
> >>> >
> >>> > We see the early days of that retrospect, but inevitably our own
> sense
> >>> > of "British" and "American" are freighted with two additional
> centuries of
> >>> > divergence the characters in M&D hadn't known.
> >>> >
> >>> > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 1:57 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>> > After the disappointment with Vineland (which has since grown in my
> >>> > esteem), I was thrilled to read M&D - back to the lush language and
> deeper
> >>> > themes of his earlier books. But all those Caps and ampersands are
> >>> > off-putting to any reader, but especially to (let's face it)us stupid
> >>> > Americans, who are rarely fluent in a second language (guilty!). The
> text is
> >>> > as off-putting as Chaucer, at first glance - fodder for a college
> seminar,
> >>> > but not, perhaps the book you grab on the way out the door to read
> on the
> >>> > subway. Much as I enjoyed the book, this group read is only my second
> >>> > go-round. Looking forward to it.
> >>> >
> >>> > Is it more uniquely American than his other works? Hardly (see stupid
> >>> > American reference above). Yes, Mason & Dixon immediately equals the
> >>> > Mason-Dixon line in the American mind. My first thought on seeing
> the title
> >>> > was that it was going to be a novel about the Civil War. And of
> course, that
> >>> > looms over the whole book, which is very much about borders as
> instruments
> >>> > of racism and colonialism. But it's about two Brits making their way
> across
> >>> > an American landscape when it was still ostensibly British. In a
> way, it's
> >>> > about the moment when the British handed over the baton of
> colonialism to
> >>> > the Americans. The line at the time it was drawn was purely a
> British bit of
> >>> > business. Most Americans are surprised that it's between
> Pennsylvania and
> >>> > Maryland, assuming that it's somehow much farther down south.
> >>> >
> >>> > Mark, you're a Pennsylvanian? Does crossing the border into Maryland
> >>> > have any particular significance for you? I'm guessing not much.
> >>> >
> >>> > Mason & Dixon is about the significance of a line, just as V is about
> >>> > the convergence of two lines, and Gravity's Rainbow is about the
> parabola.
> >>> > Pynchon loves geometry. He may have been attracted to the story
> because of
> >>> > the line. But in finishing it when he did, after becoming a husband
> and
> >>> > father, it became something else - a novel of family and friendship -
> >>> > something he was grasping at in Vineland, but perfected here. Between
> >>> > geometry, racism, colonialism and affection - don't think there's
> anything
> >>> > uniquely American in M&D. Vineland, ATD and IV are all more
> American, in my
> >>> > opinion.
> >>> >
> >>> > Laura
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > >From: John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
> >>> > >Sent: Jan 4, 2015 5:49 AM
> >>> >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >I'd love to hear some words from those who already hold this book
> >>> > >close to their hearts. There are a lot of veteran P-listers who put
> >>> > >the novel near (even higher than!) Gravity's Rainbow in that
> friendly
> >>> > >fascist framework we call Favourites.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >Me, I've never dig-dug the book the way I dig-do V. or GR or VL or
> BE
> >>> > >but I've always put that down to personal experience or font-size or
> >>> > >perhaps cultural materialism.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >But mostly I've put it down to the fact that I've never been to the
> US
> >>> > >(outside of a TV or cinema screen). I have no deep, internalised,
> >>> > >situated knowledge of America and the shouted and whispered
> >>> > >conversation it has been having with its divided selves for so many
> >>> > >centuries. Some other non-US readers here have professed their
> >>> > >appreciation of the book so I'm not claiming this is an
> American-only
> >>> > >novel.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >STILL: I would really love to hear people throw out a few lines
> >>> > >describing what this Pynchon novel is. I want to hear love songs to
> >>> > >the thing, though I feel my ear is tinny and poorly tuned. Ring
> true!
> >>> > >-
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > -
> >>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>
> >>
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
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