M & D Deep Duck: arc of years

[Mark Kohut]

Heikki's precision: Becker reminds that the colonists declared themselves
independent of Britain a decade before they could draft and agree on and ratify
state-by-state The (written) Declaration of Independence. ('But the
document never knew
itself, in any of its various forms, by that name)

Becker points out it was a statement to the world re a universal human right,
the right to self-determination, with much of the beginning a
general--then loaded with specifics--
argument for the right to rebel against 'an absolute tyranny"...."to
furnish a legal and moral justification
for that rebellion."

>From Becker's DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE book


On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 7:50 AM, Heikki R
<situations.journeys.comedy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Nice thread.Just want to add that both V and M&D start around the Christmasy
> Mid-Atlantic, one 10 years after the US Declaration of Independence, the
> other 10 years after the WWII.
> One difference, of course, being that Profane is a drifting outsider,
> Cherrycoke an outsider surrounded (and at least temporarily sheltered) by
> the family.
>
>
> Heikki
>
> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
> <lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>
>>
>> But how does the Potsdam conference fit into this?
>>
>> "Slothrop recognizes Churchill and Stalin all right, but isn't sure about
>> the other one. 'Emil, who's that guy in the glasses?'
>> 'The American president. Mr. Truman.'
>> 'Quit fooling. Truman is vice-president. Roosevelt is president.'
>> Säure raises an eyebrow. 'Roosevelt died back in spring. Just before the
>> surrender.'"
>>
>> GR, p. 373
>>
>>
>> On 08.01.2015 19:23, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Pynchon ignores the obvious BIG times and places in his books (Bleeding
>>> Edge being the one exception, or  ATD, for the Ludlow Massacre). His
>>> characters never happen to be at Pearl Harbor or Omaha Beach or Boston
>>> Harbor during the Tea Party. He wants his characters (and/or us) to view
>>> these events from a distance (if at all). Most masterfully done, in my
>>> opinion in GR with his Hiroshima newspaper scrap. Anyway, a reason not to
>>> start the narrative at a more obvious British --> American point, 1776.
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> From: Mark Kohut<mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Jan 8, 2015 12:34 PM
>>>> To: Becky Lindroos<bekker2 at icloud.com>
>>>> Cc: pynchon -l<pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: M & D Deep Duck: arc of years
>>>>
>>>> So, I've been led to see it this way now(in my Reading---everyone
>>>> else's milage seems better).  Story starts in 1786
>>>>
>>>> 1) for Laura's reasons mainly. Ending of British colonial rule and
>>>> becoming of these free, independent new country, the
>>>> United States. All the idealism is set to go on paper.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Mason has died. Rev Cherrycoke came to pay his Respects, although
>>>> he missed the Funeral, and cannot
>>>> easily pull away from (the Ghost of) Mason, visiting the grave every
>>>> day.
>>>>
>>>> Hence, he starts his storytelling.
>>>>
>>>> Enough meaning to begin.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Becky Lindroos<bekker2 at icloud.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Too many definitional problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fwiw,  I think the "real" "America" "started" forming its "patterns"
>>>>> in about 1619 with the first serious permanent (lasting) colonists,
>>>>> including women and agricultural slaves,  in Jamestown and the next year in
>>>>> Plymouth.  Virginia got women that year, as well as their first slaves and
>>>>> the House of Burgesses. The Plymouth Colony had Indian issues, the
>>>>> "frontier,"  mercantilism, Separatism, the work ethic, etc.  These folks
>>>>> were not necessarily interested in making the bucks and returning "home."
>>>>> Of course "Englishness" (language, political structures,  customs and
>>>>> holidays, etc.)  still prevailed for quite a long time,  but  "Americanism"
>>>>> grew in little spurts and great leaps, varying by location,  and with some
>>>>> actual pauses, from that time.  There is no "real" boundary - no yes/no
>>>>> line.  To look for one is to once again try to impose a grid on a holistic
>>>>> essence - a straight line on a globe or on the spheres.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bekah
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 8, 2015, at 2:47 AM, Mark Kohut<mark.kohut at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Ewers writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What could Mason help Cherrycoke with?  That passage (with the Rev
>>>>>> feeling like the haunting shade...) suggests the interface
>>>>>> (mirror/line...) between worlds-type-thing, right?  Again, with Mason
>>>>>> having "arriv'd at Death"... it's got me wondering about departures
>>>>>> and arrivals, and what's in between.  An arc?  In the 1760s, could the
>>>>>> Colonies be said to have departed British-ness but not yet arrived at
>>>>>> America-ness?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best I've heard on why the story does not start as M & D ended their
>>>>>> work. Off the top, it could have. All of their part could have been
>>>>>> more or less---but w Pynchon I think "less", trying to understand
>>>>>> why--the same on the page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, these twenty years are another boundary (period)? THIS is when the
>>>>>> 'real' America formed its patterns, always undertowing the coming
>>>>>> ideals? Although we learn "nothing' about those years, the omniscient
>>>>>> narrator gives us all the detail of the way the world IS behind 9and
>>>>>> after) M & D, so to speak?
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> Pynchon-l /http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>> Pynchon-l /http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l /http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
>
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l