NP - Here's What's at the Heart of the Crisis in Greece
Mike Weaver
mike.weaver at zen.co.uk
Sat Jan 31 04:44:26 CST 2015
2Troo.
Thanks for adding a big grin to my breakfast. Goes well with the grapes
and banana.
Though we don't stay Us by thought and sentiment alone. A strong
influence on my thought has always been a line in John Fowles' book -
can't remember what it's called - not fiction but a collection of
thoughts - he points out that the lines don't go between people but
through them.
We are trapped in Their system and every time (eg) we operate as
consumers in the market we help Them keep their strength, every time we,
as males/whites or whatever dominance you care to name, every time we
take or accept individual advantage of our membership of that group, we
help shore up Their system, we join Them in their comfort and
complacency. Well that's what I reckon anyway.
best wishes
Mike
On 31/01/2015 06:45, David Morris wrote:
> They R not Us. We R not Them.
> We RNT!
>
> On Friday, January 30, 2015, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com
> <mailto:richard.romeo at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure who They are either ;)
>
> rich
>
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:00 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fqmorris at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
> If Greece's debt was mostly or completely forgiven, Greece
> wouldn't be able to get into that same kind of hole again,
> unless They let/lead it.
>
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:18 AM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','richard.romeo at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
> nonetheless how do you prevent Greece from sliding back
> into its old ways. the new gov't wants to inject a
> significant amount of money into the economy. I'm not sure
> anyone believes things will change
>
> also, we would all agree much that goes on in economics
> isnt about money but perception. what seems obvious to you
> and me as to debt levels doesnt make sense to the Germans,
> Dutch or Finns. I'm not advocating for the tough line
> against Greece but there are legitimate concerns about
> countries like Spain and Italy as well as Greece whether
> they are competent enough to manage their economies presently
>
> my burden in life is seeing all sides to things, what can
> I say
>
> rich
>
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 10:10 AM, David Morris
> <fqmorris at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fqmorris at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
> I think the main points are:
>
> Greece will NEVER be able to pay back this debt, and
> will thus be perpetually under the boot of the Euro Bank.
>
> The amount of money at stake is a TINY amount
> relative the the rich nations that control the Euro bank.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:00 AM, rich
> <richard.romeo at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','richard.romeo at gmail.com');>>
> wrote:
>
> will they go after the elites and get them to pay
> their taxes? not that this is an issue only in
> Greece. i think the new gov't has its work cut out
> for it. german banks have a had a hand in all this
> mess (not only german banks tho). they should pay
> for their stupidity and greed as well
>
> rich
>
> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 11:14 AM, David Morris
> <fqmorris at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fqmorris at gmail.com');>>
> wrote:
>
> If you're in the market for some interesting
> commentary on Greece, there have been a couple
> of good ones recently. The first comes from
> Paul Krugman, who, among other things, makes a
> point that often gets missed: Greece is
> already running a primary surplus. That is,
> they've cut spending enough over the past few
> years that their budget would be balanced if
> it weren't for interest payments on their
> gigantic debt. What's more, their primary
> surplus isslated to rise to 4.5 percent in the
> future:
> <http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/thinking-about-the-new-greek-crisis/>
>
> If Greece were to adhere totally to the
> previous terms, over the next five years
> it would make resource transfers of about
> 20 percent of one year’s GDP. From the
> point of view of the creditors, that’s a
> trivial sum. From the point of the Greeks,
> however, it’s crucial; the difference
> between a primary surplus of 4.5 percent
> of GDP and, say, 1.5 percent of GDP for
> the Greek economy and the welfare of its
> citizens is huge. The only reason for the
> creditors to play hardball would be to
> make Greece an example, to discourage
> other debtors from trying to negotiate relief.
>
> In other words, the EU is demanding that
> Greece not just balance its budget, but run a
> large surplus that it will mostly send to
> large countries for whom it's a trivial sum.
> For Greece, though, it's a /huge/ sum, the
> difference between years of penury and a
> return to growth. This is at the heart of the
> conflict between Greece and the EU.
>
> The second commentary comes from Daniel
> Davies, who makes the point that Greece's
> gigantic debt doesn't really matter /as debt/.
> Everyone knows Greece will never be able to
> pay it back. But if everyone knows this, why
> are Germany and the rest of the EU so hellbent
> on refusing to write it off?
> <http://crookedtimber.org/2015/01/25/greek-games-and-scenarios/>
>
> Don’t think of the Greek debt burden,
> either in cash € terms or as a ratio to
> GDP, as an economic quantity. It basically
> isn’t an economically meaningful number
> any more. *The purpose of its existence is
> as a political quantity; it’s part of the
> means by which control is exercised over
> the Greek budget by the Eurosystem.* The
> regular rituals of renegotiation of the
> bailout package, financing of debt
> maturity peaks and so on, are the way in
> which the solvent Euroland nations
> exercise the kind of political control
> that they feel they need to have if they
> are going to be fiscally responsible for
> the bills.
>
> ....It is, therefore, totally inimical to
> the Eurosystem to hold out any hope of the
> kind of debt writedown that Syriza wants,
> as opposed to some smaller, cosmetic face
> value reduction or maturity extension.
> *The entire reason why Syriza wants to get
> a major up-front reduction in the debt
> number is to create political space to
> execute the rest of their program.* The
> debt issue and the political issue are the
> same issue. Syriza understands this, and
> so does the Eurosystem.
>
> In other words, Greece doesn't want to run a
> large budget surplus. They want to increase
> government spending in order to dig their way
> out of their massive economic depression. The
> rest of the EU wants no such thing. They're
> afraid that if they let Greece off the hook,
> then (a) everyone else will want to be let off
> the hook, and (b) Greece will go right back to
> its free-spending ways and soon require
> another bailout. If the price of that is years
> of pain and unemployment, so be it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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