NP - Here's What's at the Heart of the Crisis in Greece

Sat Jan 31 00:45:35 CST 2015

They R not Us.  We R not Them.
We RNT!

On Friday, January 30, 2015, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not sure who They are either ;)
>
> rich
>
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:00 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fqmorris at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
>> If Greece's debt was mostly or completely forgiven, Greece wouldn't be
>> able to get into that same kind of hole again, unless They let/lead it.
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:18 AM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','richard.romeo at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>
>>> nonetheless how do you prevent Greece from sliding back into its old
>>> ways. the new gov't wants to inject a significant amount of money into the
>>> economy. I'm not sure anyone believes things will change
>>>
>>> also, we would all agree much that goes on in economics isnt about money
>>> but perception. what seems obvious to you and me as to debt levels doesnt
>>> make sense to the Germans, Dutch or Finns. I'm not advocating for the tough
>>> line against Greece but there are legitimate concerns about countries like
>>> Spain and Italy as well as Greece whether they are competent enough to
>>> manage their economies presently
>>>
>>> my burden in life is seeing all sides to things, what can I say
>>>
>>> rich
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 10:10 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fqmorris at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the main points are:
>>>>
>>>> [?] Greece will NEVER be able to pay back this debt, and will thus be
>>>> perpetually under the boot of the Euro Bank.
>>>>
>>>> [?] The amount of money at stake is a TINY amount relative the the rich
>>>> nations that control the Euro bank.
>>>>
>>>> David Morris
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:00 AM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com
>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','richard.romeo at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> will they go after the elites and get them to pay their taxes? not
>>>>> that this is an issue only in Greece. i think the new gov't has its work
>>>>> cut out for it. german banks have a had a hand in all this mess (not only
>>>>> german banks tho). they should pay for their stupidity and greed as well
>>>>>
>>>>> rich
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 11:14 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fqmorris at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're in the market for some interesting commentary on Greece,
>>>>>> there have been a couple of good ones recently. The first comes from Paul
>>>>>> Krugman, who, among other things, makes a point that often gets missed:
>>>>>> Greece is already running a primary surplus. That is, they've cut spending
>>>>>> enough over the past few years that their budget would be balanced
>>>>>> if it weren't for interest payments on their gigantic debt. What's more,
>>>>>> their primary surplus isslated to rise to 4.5 percent in the future:
>>>>>> <http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/thinking-about-the-new-greek-crisis/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If Greece were to adhere totally to the previous terms, over the next
>>>>>> five years it would make resource transfers of about 20 percent of one
>>>>>> year’s GDP. From the point of view of the creditors, that’s a trivial sum.
>>>>>> From the point of the Greeks, however, it’s crucial; the difference between
>>>>>> a primary surplus of 4.5 percent of GDP and, say, 1.5 percent of GDP for
>>>>>> the Greek economy and the welfare of its citizens is huge. The only reason
>>>>>> for the creditors to play hardball would be to make Greece an example, to
>>>>>> discourage other debtors from trying to negotiate relief.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, the EU is demanding that Greece not just balance its
>>>>>> budget, but run a large surplus that it will mostly send to large countries
>>>>>> for whom it's a trivial sum. For Greece, though, it's a *huge* sum,
>>>>>> the difference between years of penury and a return to growth. This is at
>>>>>> the heart of the conflict between Greece and the EU.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The second commentary comes from Daniel Davies, who makes the point
>>>>>> that Greece's gigantic debt doesn't really matter *as debt*.
>>>>>> Everyone knows Greece will never be able to pay it back. But if everyone
>>>>>> knows this, why are Germany and the rest of the EU so hellbent on
>>>>>> refusing to write it off?
>>>>>> <http://crookedtimber.org/2015/01/25/greek-games-and-scenarios/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don’t think of the Greek debt burden, either in cash € terms or as a
>>>>>> ratio to GDP, as an economic quantity. It basically isn’t an economically
>>>>>> meaningful number any more. *The purpose of its existence is as a
>>>>>> political quantity; it’s part of the means by which control is exercised
>>>>>> over the Greek budget by the Eurosystem.* The regular rituals of
>>>>>> renegotiation of the bailout package, financing of debt maturity peaks and
>>>>>> so on, are the way in which the solvent Euroland nations exercise the kind
>>>>>> of political control that they feel they need to have if they are going to
>>>>>> be fiscally responsible for the bills.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ....It is, therefore, totally inimical to the Eurosystem to hold out
>>>>>> any hope of the kind of debt writedown that Syriza wants, as opposed to
>>>>>> some smaller, cosmetic face value reduction or maturity extension. *The
>>>>>> entire reason why Syriza wants to get a major up-front reduction in the
>>>>>> debt number is to create political space to execute the rest of their
>>>>>> program.* The debt issue and the political issue are the same issue.
>>>>>> Syriza understands this, and so does the Eurosystem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, Greece doesn't want to run a large budget surplus.
>>>>>> They want to increase government spending in order to dig their way out of
>>>>>> their massive economic depression. The rest of the EU wants no such thing.
>>>>>> They're afraid that if they let Greece off the hook, then (a) everyone else
>>>>>> will want to be let off the hook, and (b) Greece will go right back to its
>>>>>> free-spending ways and soon require another bailout. If the price of that
>>>>>> is years of pain and unemployment, so be it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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