A Ranking of Pynchon's Novels
kelber at mindspring.com
kelber at mindspring.com
Thu Jul 23 13:48:30 CDT 2015
Not surprising that the most filmable is the least liked.
LK
-----Original Message-----
From: Heikki R
Sent: Jul 23, 2015 5:27 AM
To: pynchon -l
Subject: Re: A Ranking of Pynchon's Novels
Current standings (21 respondents) on a scale of 1 (least good) to 8 (best):
1. Gravity's Rainbow (156 points - average 7,43)2. Mason & Dixon (131 points - average 6,24)3. V. (108,5 points - average 5,17)4. The Crying of Lot 49 (96 points - average 4,57)5. Against the Day (82,5 points - average 3,93)6. Vineland (77 points - average 3,67)7. Bleeding Edge (50 points - average 2,38)8. Inherent Vice (40 points - average 1,90)
The results/averages are not wholly reliable as not every respondent ranked all the novels. I ignored Slow Learner.
Heikki
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com> wrote:
"Could he [Wm. Slothrop] have been the fork in the road America never
took, the singular point she jumped the wrong way from? ... It seems
to Tyrone Slothrop that there might be a route back." (GR, Pt. III, p.
556)
http://www.ottosell.de/pynchon/rainbow.htm
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 4:04 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
<lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>
>> That sense of contingency, that sense that things could have been
>> different, speaks to me, and I find it missing in GR ... <
>
> There you speak from an American perspective. For me, as a German person,
> "Gravity's Rainbow" has this sense of contingency because it asks why we did
> become Nazi Germany in the 1930s and what, actually and virtually, happened
> to Germany during the 1940s. In this regard the only novel that can compete
> with "Gravity's Rainbow" is "Doktor Faustus" by Thomas Mann, which was
> written in LA too. Paradoxically, the fact that Pynchon knew relatively
> little about Germany enabled him to evoke something crucial; and certain
> zeitgeist circumstances, like Acid or the war in Vietnam, helped him to
> create a picture of Nazi Germany that in many aspects shows more of the
> actual reality than the moralist tales of writers like Böll and Grass;
> referring to the Holocaust only indirectly is part of this writing strategy.
> I know, "Pynchon deserves to be honored as an American patriot" (Naumann),
> but I read him from my German perspective, too. The few true works of
> "Weltliteratur" (Goethe), and "Gravity's Rainbow" certainly belongs to this
> exquisite canon, deserve more than just one and the same reading. And then
> "Gravity's Rainbow" is 760 pages not flash prose but poetry ...
>
> In the cases of both, "Mason & Dixon" and "Against the Day," I feel the
> idea to be much better than the result. I guess the fact that these books
> were long, actually too long in the pipeline plays an important role here.
> Like Walter Benjamin had it: "Das Werk ist die Totenmaske der Konzeption."
> The (finished) work of art is the death mask of conception. The letters are
> there on the page, but the artistic thrill is gone ...
>
> "Bleeding Edge," where Pynchon - focusing on digitalization and terrorism -
> returns to the GR question of technology and control, and "Vineland" show
> Pynchon II in full bloom, an author who, while having a family of his own
> relatively late in life, discovers the loyalties and disloyalties of blood
> ... I also think that these two are the funniest works of Pynchon.
>
>
>
> On 23.07.2015 03:39, Robert Mahnke wrote:
>
> David said, "the fact that not everyone agrees that GR is Pynchon's
> masterpiece make some of wonder what's wrong with those that don't. We could
> start flame wars about these differences. That might be illuminating, and
> fun..."
>
> Since I was one of the (few) people who didn't rank GR first, let me try to
> shed some light, but not heat. The most recent time I re-read GR, I was as
> impressed as ever with it intellectually, but it didn't seem as human as
> M&D. Maybe a central question of M&D is, Why did we end up with this
> country instead of another? That's question in many of Pynchon's novels
> (AtD (this world instead of another) and both Inherent Vice and Vineland
> (this California instead of another). That sense of contingency, that sense
> that things could have been different, speaks to me, and I find it missing
> in GR (and V and TCoL49 before it), where there is such a strong sense of
> predetermination, of the discovery of a hidden order and conspiracy, whether
> in the pattern of the V-2s falling on London or the printed-circuit-like
> layout of San Narciso. I'm presenting this as a dichotomy, but of course
> something of that sense of another country is in the earlier books, for
> example in a great passage just before the end of TCoL49 which I can't find
> online just now. Still, from this perspective you can be impressed by the
> intellectual pyrotechnics of GR (it is second on my list, after all), and
> yet still think of it as a not-yet-matured work relative to M&D. If Pynchon
> had written M&D in the 70s and GR two decades later, might their relative
> statures in everyone's eyes be the reverse?
>
> Those are just a few thoughts tonight. I reserve the right to change my mind
> completely tomorrow.
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 4:58 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Those that have read all of Pynchon's novels are familiar with each ones
>> qualities and differences. Thus there is a common unspoken understanding of
>> the overall picture. But the fact that not everyone agrees that GR is
>> Pynchon's masterpiece make some of wonder what's wrong with those that
>> don't. We could start flame wars about these differences. That might be
>> illuminating, and fun...
>>
>> David Morris
>>
>> On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Conor McDade <fpsconor at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am only a youth, so I apologize for my naivete, but what is the point
>>> of these lists without providing any insight as to why you listed them in
>>> such order? Is it simply to see how people's tastes vary?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Chris v <traditionalgb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1. AtD
>>>> 2. M&D
>>>> 3. GR
>>>> 4. VL
>>>> 5. IV
>>>> 6. CoL49
>>>> 7. V.
>>>> 8. SL
>>>> 9. BE (haven't read yet)
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Why doesn't Ms. Jackson (and Thomas) make that happen, you think? Why
>>>>> wasn't there a 50th Anniversary edition Of V? seems about every modern "
>>>>> classic" was so " honored" Think Pynchon does not believe in such
>>>>> anniversary editions?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 22, 2015, at 3:51 AM, James Robertson
>>>>> <james at themutedposthorn.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I sure wish someone would record an audiobook of V, and Vineland. That
>>>>> new George Guidall version of GR is marvellous.
>>>>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 at 8:48 pm jochen stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2nd that!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2015-07-22 9:55 GMT+02:00 Heikki R
>>>>>> <situations.journeys.comedy at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Gravity's Rainbow
>>>>>>> 2. V.
>>>>>>> 3. Mason & Dixon
>>>>>>> 4. The Crying of Lot 49
>>>>>>> 5. Vineland
>>>>>>> 6. Against the Day
>>>>>>> 7. Inherent Vice
>>>>>>> 8. Bleeding Edge
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In fact, on a couple of occasions, the contestants were
>>>>>>> shoulder-to-shoulder. But I decided to avoid ties (perhaps for tactical
>>>>>>> reasons).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Heikki
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 7:02 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eaux Contraire!
>>>>>>>> Inclusion is de facto non-flame. Love is the answer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ... speaking of flame wars ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 11:04 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> > Elected Officials are all we got in this semi-democracy. Love it
>>>>>>>>> > or Leave
>>>>>>>>> > it.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > We need to embrace democracy, with all its warts. We are
>>>>>>>>> > extremely lucky to
>>>>>>>>> > be living in a place where we would want to discuss this
>>>>>>>>> > abstraction.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > David Morris
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Dave Monroe
>>>>>>>>> > <against.the.dave at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> Americans will vote for almost anything except elected
>>>>>>>>> >> officials.
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 9:33 PM, David Morris
>>>>>>>>> >> <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> > Voting is so American Idol! I want my choice to win!
>>>>>>>>> >> > Face facts: Votes aren't gunna be backed up by essays.
>>>>>>>>> >> > David Morris
>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> > On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> No, it just means that mathematical averages cannot capture
>>>>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>>>>> >> >> delightful diversity of our responses! Collating the
>>>>>>>>> >> >> different lists
>>>>>>>>> >> >> into one loses something the way that a plot summary of a P
>>>>>>>>> >> >> novel will
>>>>>>>>> >> >> never suffice.
>>>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 12:10 PM, David Ewers
>>>>>>>>> >> >> <dsewers at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > I feel so redundant!
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > On Jul 21, 2015, at 6:53 PM Jolly good day we are having,
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > John Bailey
>>>>>>>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> The order seems to remain the same.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:55 AM, David Ewers
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> <dsewers at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> Me too!
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 1. V.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 2. Gravity's Rainbow
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 3. Mason & Dixon
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 4/5. Against the Day
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 4/5. Crying of Lot 49
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 6. Vineland
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 7. Inherent Vice
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 8. Bleeding Edge
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> On Jul 21, 2015, at 6:22 PM Jolly good day we are having,
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> Mark
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> Thibodeau
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> I love the diversity of opinions, too, but I'm kind of
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> surprised at
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> how bad
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> V. is faring!
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> MT/J
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 9:08 PM, Ian Livingston
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> Love the diversity of rankings in rating one great
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> author. Rather
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> like six
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> blind men describing an elephant. We each have our
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> opinions and
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> our
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> reasons
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> for them. I love GR, I truly do, and it may be the
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> greater work
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> for
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> all it
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> did to shape postmodernism, but:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 1. M&D
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 2. GR
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 3. AtD
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 4. V. / COL 49 (tie)
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 5. Vineland
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 6. BE
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 7. IV
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 8. Slow Learner
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 5:48 PM, glenn fuller
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> <glennfuller at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> G.R.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> A.t.D.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> T.C.O.L.49
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> Vineland
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> M&D
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> I.V.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> B.E.
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> V
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> >> -
>>>>>>>>> >> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
>
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